Friday, June 23, 2006

1.: Invaluable contribution of Jewish community

Posted by: "Vigilius Haufniensis" nerdmann@earthlink.net concept_of_irony

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:04 pm (PST)

http://www.edgwaretimes.co.uk/news/opinion/display.var.803948.0.invaluable_contribution_of_jewish_community.php

Invaluable contribution of Jewish community
This year we celebrate the 350th anniversary of the readmission of the Jews to England, writes Hendon MP ANDREW DISMORE.
Jews were first recorded in England in Norman times. They were subject to prejudice and worse, from the start.

In 1190, around 150 Jews lost their lives in York. In 1255, 18 were executed, after an infamous ritual murder libel in Lincoln. Both cities are now represented by Jewish MPs. In 1290, Edward I expelled the Jews from England. Small communities of Jews continued to live secretly in London, but for more than 350 years, Jews were unable to play any visible part in the life of our country. In September 1655, the Amsterdam-based Rabbi Menasseh ben Israel petitioned Oliver Cromwell to grant Jews the right to re-settle. The following year, Cromwell told the Jewish community it could live openly and he would protect it. I doubt Cromwell could have foreseen that one day, his Commons seat of Huntingdon would be held by a Jew, as it is today.

During the 18th Century, the Jewish presence in England continued to grow. London became home to one of the largest urban Jewish communities in Europe. From the 1880s more refugees arrived fleeing the pogroms of Poland and Russia.

Britain was not particularly receptive to Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis. The notable exception was the Kindertransport, which on the eve of war rescued Jewish children (their parents were not given visas) from Germany.
Historically, anti-Semitism was tolerated and even encouraged, exemplified by stereotypes like Shakespeare's Shylock, through to Dickens' Fagin. Quite rightly, this attitude was resisted.

The Battle of Cable Street took place in 1936 a clash between the police, overseeing a march by the British Union of Fascists (BUF), and anti-fascists including local Jewish groups who erected barricades. After running battles, the BUF were dispersed. But anti-Semitism remains. 455 incidents were recorded in 2005 including 82 violent assaults.

Jews have contributed to our national life in so many ways. The first documented military contribution is from 1757, when Captain Schonfield commanded HMS Diana, supporting General James against the French at Quebec. In the First World War, 55,000 Jews enlisted; 1,100 decorations were won, including the first Jewish VC. In the Second World War, about 65,000 served. 3,000 gave their lives.

In 1847, Lionel de Rothschild was elected MP, but could not take the oath. After he had won four successive elections, this was amended, allowing him to become the first practising Jewish Member of Parliament.

Many household business names were founded by Jews, like Marks & Spencer, Tesco and ICI.

Lord Winston, the infertility treatment pioneer, leads a long list of Jewish scientists. Jews are represented throughout the arts and in sport.

Boxer Daniel Mendoza was heavyweight champion from 1792 until 1795, even though he was only 5ft 7in tall and only 11.5 stone. Harold Abrahams, the hero of Chariots of Fire was the 1924 Olympic 100m champion.

Ever since its return, the Jewish community has played a full part in our country's success in every field and has proved diversity does not mean division. We wish the Jewish community mazeltov' for its 350th anniversary.

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2.: Bloglines - Bush's Real Response to the August 6th PDB

Posted by: "bill.giltner@gmail.com" bill.giltner@gmail.com bgiltner

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:13 pm (PST)

BODY {background-color: white} body, div, p, th, td, li, dd,
code, tt { font-size: 10pt; font-family:
verdana,helvetica; white-space:wrap;} h2 {
font-size: 16px; margin: 0; color: 1393C0; }
.blogtitle { font-size: 16px; } Bloglines
<http://www.bloglines.com> user bill.giltner@gmail.com has sent
this item to you.

9/11 Blogger - Blogging 9/11 Related Alternative News
<http://www.911blogger.com>
All comments are welcome! but please avoid hate speech and
profanity, and use references when possible.
Bush's Real Response to the August 6th PDB
<http://www.911blogger.com/2006/06/bushs-real-response-to-august-6th-pdb.html> By dz
Couple days late on this, sorry.

Ron Suskind, George W. Bush and the Aug. 6, 2001, PDB
<http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/06/20/911pdb/index.html> - salon.com
We've known for years now that George W. Bush received a
presidential daily briefing on Aug. 6, 2001, in which he was
warned: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." We've known for
almost as long that Bush went fishing afterward.

What we didn't know is what happened in between the briefing and
the fishing, and now Suskind is here to tell us. Bush listened to
the briefing, Suskind says, then told the CIA briefer: "All
right. You've covered your ass, now."

Sounds like words from someone who had no idea something like
9/11 would occur soon eh?

A relevant quote from George Bush on the PDB:
"David, look, let me just say it again: Had I known there was
going to be an attack on America, I would have moved mountains to
stop the attack. I would have done everything I can. My job is to
protect the American people. And I asked the intelligence agency
to analyze the data to tell me whether or not we faced a threat
internally, like they thought we had faced a threat in other
parts of the world. That's what the PDB request was. And had
there been actionable intelligence, we would have moved on it."
- George W. Bush, April 11th, 2004

Thanks Gold for the quote

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3a.: Data mining methods revealed

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:17 pm (PST)

<http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/06/22/data_mining_methods_revealed/>

Excerpt:

Even as others cited the Fifth Amendment, a former data broker enthralled Congress yesterday with a behind-the-scenes lesson on how this shadowy industry covertly gathers Americans' telephone records without subpoenas or warrants.

Some lawmakers gasped and others shook their heads in amazement during testimony from James Rapp, a former data broker run out of the business years ago by Colorado police.

Others identified as active data brokers refused to answer questions about how they conduct business, invoking their constitutional rights against saying anything under oath that might be used by prosecutors.

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3b.: Re: Data mining methods revealed

Posted by: "better_off_said" better_off_said@yahoo.com better_off_said

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:40 pm (PST)

"Rapp described what steps he would use, for example, to locate and
steal the credit-card records..."

[...]

"Brokers have tricked telephone carriers into disclosing private
customer information and broken into online accounts..."

These "data brokers" are nothing more than identity thieves. It's
disgusting that they'd be treated as a legitimate business by law
enforcement agencies.

If their methods for obtaining information were legal, then they
wouldn't have to "trick" anyone to get it-- it'd be PUBLIC. Surely
there are laws against obtaining PRIVATE customer information
(otherwise companies should refer to it as "open customer
information")?

P.S. Should the name Yontef ring a bell?

--- In political-research@yahoogroups.com, Sean McBride
<smcbride2@...> wrote:
>
>
>
<http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/06/22/data_m
ining_methods_revealed/>
>
> Excerpt:
>
> Even as others cited the Fifth Amendment, a former data broker
enthralled Congress yesterday with a behind-the-scenes lesson on how
this shadowy industry covertly gathers Americans' telephone records
without subpoenas or warrants.
>
> Some lawmakers gasped and others shook their heads in amazement
during testimony from James Rapp, a former data broker run out of
the business years ago by Colorado police.
>
> Others identified as active data brokers refused to answer
questions about how they conduct business, invoking their
constitutional rights against saying anything under oath that might
be used by prosecutors.
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
___
> Save and share anything you find online - Furl @
http://www.furl.net
>

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4.: Fwd: Connotate's Information Agent Suite 6(TM) Transforms the Web In

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:18 pm (PST)

Yahoo!News Search Results for artificial intelligence <rssfwd@rssfwd.com> wrote: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:35:53 +0800
From: Yahoo!News Search Results for artificial intelligence <rssfwd@rssfwd.com>
Subject: Connotate's Information Agent Suite 6(TM) Transforms the Web Into a Research Goldmine; Newly Released Platform Provides (RedNova)

body { background-color: #fff; color: #333; } body, p, ol, ul, td { font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px; } pre { background-color: #eee; padding: 10px; font-size: 11px; } a { color: #000; } a:visited { color: #666; } a:hover { color: #fff; background-color:#000; } Connotate Technologies, Inc., the leading provider of solutions which delivers actionable intelligence from the Web, today announced the release of Information Agent Suite 6(TM). Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:08:45 GMT

---------------------------------

Source: http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/search/artificial+intelligence/SIG=14iv18h23/*http%3A//www.redorbit.com/news/technology/547199/connotates_information_agent_suite_6tm_transforms_the_web_into_a/index.html?source=r_technology

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5.: Coulter: If Murtha did get fragged, he'd finally deserve one of thos

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:34 pm (PST)

<http://mediamatters.org/items/200606220013>

Comment: Neocon chickenhawks are now calling for the murder of American veterans and military heroes. You knew it would come to this. It will get much worse before this boil is lanced.

Summary: Ann Coulter refused to explain -- and even expanded upon -- her recent claim that Rep. John P. Murtha is "the reason soldiers invented fragging," military slang meaning the intentional killing of a member of one's own unit. On a Denver radio show, Coulter referred to her fragging comment as one of her "best lines" and refused to confirm that she was not "suggesting that anybody should off John Murtha," stating only: "It is what it is." On Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, Coulter further expanded upon her statement, asserting that if Murtha "did get fragged, he'd finally deserve one of those Purple Hearts."

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6.: Daniel Pipes/Michael Massing Exchange on Campus Watch

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:55 pm (PST)

<http://mparent7777.livejournal.com/9687321.html>

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7.: Re: When robots learn social skills

Posted by: "better_off_said" better_off_said@yahoo.com better_off_said

Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:05 pm (PST)

Hell, I'd marry one if they'd teach it to open the door for me and
not belch in public...

--- In political-research@yahoogroups.com, Sean McBride
<smcbride2@...> wrote:
>
>
> <http://www.physorg.com/news70202621.html>
>
> Learning to communicate and adapting our behaviour to the
information we receive has been fundamental to human evolution. If
machines could do the same the intelligent talking robots of science
fiction could become the stuff of science reality, as researchers
aim to prove.
>
>
>
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___
> Save and share anything you find online - Furl @
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>

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8.: OregonLive.com's Printer-Friendly Page

Posted by: "Bill Giltner" bill.giltner@gmail.com bgiltner

Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:06 pm (PST)

*OregonLive.com's Printer-Friendly
Page*<http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1150858542262640.xml&coll=7>

Feds want NSA suits united for D.C. trial *Secrets - Critics say
the government wants eavesdropping challenges rebuffed all at once *
Wednesday, June 21, 2006 ASHBEL S. GREEN
*The Oregonian*

Facing two dozen legal skirmishes around the country over top-secret NSA
surveillance programs, federal lawyers want to shift the battlefield to
their home turf, where they will try to put an end to it all with a single
shot.

In a little-noticed filing, U.S. Department of Justice lawyers on Monday
asked the Judicial Panel on Multidistrict Litigation to consolidate about
two dozen cases, including two from Oregon, before a judge in Washington,
D.C.

Federal lawyers said they intended to seek dismissal of all the suits in
order to protect state secrets.

The move, which did not reach many opposing attorneys until Tuesday, comes
as federal attorneys are expected today to inform a federal judge in
Portland that a lawsuit here would expose state secrets. They are expected
to make the same argument in San Francisco later this week.

Last week, Justice Department lawyers filed a lawsuit trying to stop New
Jersey from subpoenaing information about an NSA program and defended
another lawsuit in Michigan.

By asking the federal panel in Washington to consolidate all the lawsuits,
Justice lawyers say they are trying to be efficient and protect national
security. But lawyers challenging the program bristled at the move.

"It sounds like forum-shopping to me," said Jon Eisenberg, one of the
lawyers representing an Oregon Islamic charity that claims it has proof the
NSA illegally eavesdropped on phone calls between the group's directors and
its U.S. attorneys.

Together, the multiple NSA lawsuits challenge two distinct surveillance
programs and allege violations of several federal laws.

The first program, revealed by The New York Times late last year, involves
the warrantless eavesdropping of phone calls between suspected terrorists
overseas and U.S. citizens on American soil. The other, reported earlier
this year by USA Today, involves the collection and analysis of phone calls
of millions of average Americans since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist
attacks.

In Oregon, lawsuits have been filed challenging both NSA programs.

In addition, some lawsuits are aimed at the federal government while others
charge telephone companies with violating privacy rights.

It is unclear whether the motion by federal attorneys will immediately
affect any pending cases. The Multidistrict Litigation panel is not
scheduled to consider consolidation until late July.

While attorneys challenging the NSA programs are crying foul, other see the
government's move as logical and correct.

"Intelligence is a different world so it's always been treated differently.
So there are real risks to letting this sort of litigation go forward," said
James Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International
Studies, a Washington think tank. "Tossing it into a single court serves the
intelligence interests. How many times do you want to judge whether the
federal government did the right thing? The answer is you really only want
to judge it once."

For more than 50 years, the government almost always has prevailed in civil
litigation when it claimed that the case threatened national security by
revealing state secrets.

The so-called "state secrets privilege" not only applies to lawsuits against
the United States government, but also federal lawyers have intervened in
private legal disputes to assert it.

*Privilege used sparingly *

But the privilege has been used sparingly -- an average of fewer than twice
a year since the U.S. Supreme Court first recognized it in a 1953 case.

Critics charge, however, that the government has increasingly asserted the
privilege since the 1970s. And just as important, judges almost never look
into whether the assertion is valid or merely an attempt to cover up
something embarrassing.

"The courts have failed to provide a fair forum to determine the merits,"
said Louis Fisher, author of an upcoming book on the legal history of the
state secrets privilege. "Because if you just accept what the government
says, you're not going to get the facts and the plaintiffs -- the private
party -- don't have a chance."

Fisher points to the example of Khaled el-Masri, a Kuwaiti-born German who
was arrested in 2003 while on vacation in Macedonia and held for five months
in a prison in Afghanistan.

Although U.S. officials have acknowledged that el-Masri probably was
mistaken for an al-Qaida operative with a similar name, Justice Department
lawyers successfully persuaded a Virginia judge last month to dismiss his
lawsuit to protect state secrets.

Eisenberg, who represents the Ashland-based Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation,
said he suspects federal lawyers are growing nervous because judges around
the country are not rolling over.

In Michigan, U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor has indicated she plans
to rule on the legality of the eavesdropping program before taking up the
government's state secrets assertion.

*Turned back in Oregon *

In Oregon, U.S. District Judge Garr M. King has rebuffed the government's
request to read secret documents that Al-Haramain attorneys cannot see.

"They're frightened of Judge Taylor and they don't know what to make of
Judge King," Eisenberg said. "It doesn't make sense otherwise."

William Weaver, a professor at the University of Texas El Paso and an expert
on state secrets, said the government's move makes a lot of sense for the
reasons it stated: efficiency and the protection of top-secret materials.

But Weaver, a critic of the program, also says government lawyers have a
strong tactical motivation to get all the cases in front of one friendly
judge so it can snuff out the litigation all at once.

"This is clearly in the government's favor," Weaver said. "And it's also
clearly in the businesses' favor because it will end up immunizing them from
liability."

Ashbel "Tony" Green: 503-221-8202; tonygreen@news.oregonian.com

(c)2006 The Oregonian

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[infowarsnews] Digest Number 511

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1.: Cooked Terror Plot Recycles Politics Of Fear From: Paul Joseph Watson

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1.: Cooked Terror Plot Recycles Politics Of Fear

Posted by: "Paul Joseph Watson" watson@prisonplanet.com onedeaddj

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:11 pm (PST)

Cooked Terror Plot Recycles Politics Of Fear
'Al-Qaeda' plan to fly planes into London skyscrapers concocted by government lobbyists

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | June 22 2006

In another bizarre example of Tony Blair's government playing with the politics of fear, a discredited terror plot concerning Al-Qaeda plans to fly planes into London skyscrapers, an admitted fairy tale manufactured by government lobbyists, resurfaced today as a new story.

The BBC reports that a Department of Homeland Security dossier verifies a previous 'Al-Qaeda' plan to hijack planes from Heathrow airport and fly them into nearby Canary Wharf buildings.

The fact that this story was thoroughly discredited back in November 2004 as a collusion of imaginative government lobbyists and lapdog media collaborators is completely omitted.

Immediately before the Queen's speech Blair's government needed to inject a dose of fear into the political landscape in order to enable their ID card and anti-terror legislation to hit the ground running.

So it was that two Daily Mail and ITN news journalists, renowned for fraternizing socially with Blair's hierarchy, met with government lobbyists to cook up the terror plot and it was reported a week later as bona fide news.

At the time police and intelligence officials were baffled as to where the information had come from and totally distanced themselves from it.

"To say we were surprised at the report is an understatement - this is the first we have heard of a plot like this." Another said: "No one has been charged for this so- called plot which suggests it never happened," said one.

Even Labour's own Peter Hain, the Leader of the Commons, declared the so-called attack plot to be bogus.

"Despite having the information for several days, and possibly longer than a week, the newspaper and television program held the stories until just before the Queen's Speech, which contained Bills to introduce an ID card, an FBI-style organised crime agency and other anti-terrorist measures," said the London Independent, noting the suspicious timing of the leak.

In another bizarre parallel, an earlier May 2004 BBC Panorama documentary simulated a terror attack on Canary Wharf, causing many shocked viewers to believe the event was real, provoking hundreds of subsequent complaints.

The fabled Canary Wharf plot is just one in a never ending deluge of phony terror alerts pumped out at politically expedient times in an attempt to quell dissent against a Blair government that can now only claim the support of 15% or less of the entire population.

An alleged Al-Qaeda cell was arrested on suspicion of preparing to poison the London Underground with Ricin in January 2003. The government used the incident as a scare tactic to rally Britons behind the imminent war on Iraq. It was eventually disclosed that no Ricin was ever found and all the members of the supposed plot were released with no evidence or charges against them.

In April 2004 police in Manchester arrested a group of Kurds and subsequent newspaper headlines claimed that they were an Al-Qaeda cell planning to bomb Old Trafford football stadium (pictured above). Their evidence for such a claim was based on police interviews with one of the individuals who had attended a Manchester United game two years previously. Simply because he had attended a football game because he supported the team, the tabloid newspapers invented the story that he was planning on bombing the stadium. All of the suspects, who ironically had come to Britain to escape the regime of Saddam Hussein, were released without charge and with no evidence against them.

The London Guardian reported,

"Of the 701 people arrested under the Terrorism Act since the September 11 attacks, half have been released without charge and only 17 convicted under the act. Only three of those cases relate to allegations of Islamist extremism."

Despite this fact we are regularly bombarded with screaming headlines about mass terror sweeps, and it goes unmentioned that in nearly every case every so-called 'terrorist' is released with no evidence against them. The arrests are at the top of the evening news for days but there is no clarification or retraction when the suspects are set free. This leaves the viewer with the impression that terrorists are everywhere and that only a draconian police state can protect them against the threat.

London Metropolitan police had to apologize for a bungled raid three weeks ago in which an innocent man was shot and no evidence of terrorism preparation was found at a Forest Gate home. The raid, which involved nearly 300 armed police, was based on the testimony of a retarded government informant.

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Bloglines - THE REAL REASON MARRIAGE MAY BE IN TROUBLE

UNDERNEWS
Undernews is the online report of the Progressive Review, edited by Sam Smith, who has covered Washington under nine presidents and edited alternative journals since 1964. The Review is an online journal and archive of alternative news. It has been on the web since 1995. See main page for full contents

THE REAL REASON MARRIAGE MAY BE IN TROUBLE

By TPR

SAVAGE MINDS - To anthropologists, the way marriage is discussed and deployed in these debates is laughable. We know that marriage as conceptualized by the American religious right at the dawn of the 21st century is neither the only - or even a particularly common - form of marriage in the world, nor the way marriage has always been in our own society. The Biblical marriage that religious

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[911TruthAction] Digest Number 1349

Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)

1. Deleted

2.: Special 9/11 Radio Show Tonight - TVNL Live! From: reggie501

3.: Helen Thomas From: Bugs

4.: 9/11 Pentagon Research Interview! NOW WHAT? From: APFN

5.: Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories From: smacko

6a.: Loose (with words, no) Change video From: rriverrapid
6b.: Re: Loose (with words, no) Change video From: JP Liggett

7a.: 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld announce of September 10 From: Dick Eastman
7b.: Re: 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld announce of Septembe From: Pay_the_Piper

8.: Dead accountants -- 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld anno From: Dick Eastman

9a.: Re: moderator 911 focus? From: Pay_the_Piper
9b.: Re: moderator 911 focus? From: smacko
9c.: Re: moderator 911 focus? From: Pay_the_Piper
9d.: Re: moderator 911 focus? From: smacko

10.: Re: The missing wings at the pentagon From: rriverrapid

11.: Re: I am thrown off another large list From: rriverrapid

12a.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense From: rriverrapid
12b.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense From: rriverrapid
12c.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense From: rriverrapid

13.: Apparently the WHOLE US gubberment is a TERRORIST CELL From: smacko

14.: A Day in the Life: 6/22/6 From: President, USA Exile Govt.

15.: A group of pilots, under chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, conc From: Ole Gerstrøm

16.: Fwd: [panopticage] Global equity meltdown costs investors $2 trillio From: Kevin Lee Hammond

17.: Beware: 9/11 'Official Story': "You Have To Convince Yourself, By Tr From: smacko

18.: Alex interviews Jimmy Walters 06.20.06 From: smacko

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1.: Re: Psalm 18:37-44: "Kill your enemies" (King James Version)
Posted by: "Jolly Roger" mailto:slicingthroats@yahoo.com?Subject= slicingthroats
Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:29 am (PST)
It is extremely difficult to reverse the condition known as "brainwashing"
once it has taken root. No amount of evidence will ever convince the
brainwashed ... If people are led to believe that the moon is made of yellow
styrofoam because that's what they were told on FOX News, the chances
are slim that anyone will ever convince them otherwise.

I have to disagree with this statement -- or at least how it applies to us. Although you may be right where the word "brainwashing" is used to describe the complete process of programming, when we talk about the American people being "brainwashed" by the mainstream media it's something very different, and easily reversable.
A few facts to expose how the MSM has lied to them quickly opens the door to other facts. Vote fraud is a good example of this because it's easier to accept than 9-11 truth, but it exposes the fact that the entire "news" industry can collaborate to hide the truth, which is something most people don't think is possible.
Once they distrust the MSM, they may become curious to know more, or at least be more receptive to the facts of 9-11.
I've been working hard on people closest to me --(friends, family, and neighbors) and for many people (especially white, liberal democrats) the acceptance of 9-11 truth will only come over time. It's best to let them digest a few UNDISPUTABLE facts (thermite on beams, silverstein confession, etc. ) without badgering them rather then engaging in argument. Any "evidence" that relies on speculation (what hit the pentagon?) will only help to convince them that you don't have hard evidence, and allow them to dismiss the whole concept.

"There comes a time when every man feels the urge to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

http://www.fightthenwo.org/

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2.: Special 9/11 Radio Show Tonight - TVNL Live!
Posted by: "reggie501" mailto:reggie501@optonline.net?Subject=Re: reggie501
Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:43 am (PST)
TVNL RADIO SHOW - http://tvnewslies.org/html/radio_show.html
8 pm. ET

Thursday, June 22nd: 9/11 Naming Names! Some interesting information
has come our way regarding the people responsible for the events of
September 11th, 2001. TvNewsLIES.org will be hosting a guest that is
prepared to finally expose some of the people who made those events
possible. While we have not yet checked out all of the information
given to us the information that will be disclosed live on our show
will be at the very least verifiable. Once the names are out we can
start doing some real research related to the disclosure. This week's
program will prove to be very interesting!

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3.: Helen Thomas
Posted by: "Bugs" mailto:brawny@twlakes.net?Subject=Re: brawny1946
Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:45 am (PST)

From: wonach

Published on Tuesday, June 21, 2006 by the Independent / UK
Veteran Critic of White House Turns on 'Gullible' Press Pack
by Andrew Buncombe
For almost five decades, White House reporter Helen Thomas has been
covering America's leaders with a healthy dose of scepticism and an
endless string of pointed questions.
Along the way she has ruffled presidential feathers and, since becoming
a columnist in 2003, she has made clear her views on some of those
incumbents - including George W Bush who she has described as the "worst
president in all of American history".
Now, 85-year-old Thomas has focused attention on her fellow reporters,
accusing them of failing in their duties in the run-up to the Iraq war.
"I ask myself every day why the media have become so complacent,
complicit and gullible," she writes in Watchdogs of Democracy?, a book
published this week. "It all comes down to the 9/11 terrorist attacks
that led to fear among reporters of being considered 'unpatriotic' or
'unAmerican'."
Thomas, who has covered every president since John F Kennedy, said she
believed the press corps had recently recovered some of its spine and,
in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, had been asking more searching
questions. But she said when it really mattered - when, in her opinion,
the media could have perhaps prevented the invasion of Iraq - the press
failed to do its public service.
She said: "When this war was obviously coming on, for two years we heard
'Saddam Hussein and 9/11'. Every reporter, rather than challenging it
and saying [the 9/11 hijackers] were not Iraqis they were Saudis ... The
press rolled over and printed it when they knew we were going to war and
it could have been challenged."
She added: "Reporters have a duty to follow the truth wherever it leads
them, regardless of politics. But people do worry about their jobs."
Until 2003, Thomas sat at the front of presidential press conferences,
though for three years Mr Bush failed to call on her. In March, he asked
her for a question and she said: "Your decision to invade Iraq has
caused the deaths of thousands of Americans and Iraqis, wounds of
Americans and Iraqis for a lifetime. Every reason given, publicly at
least, has turned out not to be true. My question is, why did you really
want to go to war?"
The President would only say he did not accept the premise of her
question.
Critics have long highlighted the failure of much of the media to
thoroughly challenge the claims of the US and British governments in the
run-up to the invasion. The New York Times has been one of the few to
examine its own performance.
In a "mea culpa" it wrote: "We have found a number of instances of
coverage that were not as rigorous as they should have been. In some
cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable
now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged.
Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the
claims."
Other reporters have highlighted how, in the aftermath of 9/11, the
media was less probing, at a time when the White House spokesman Ari
Fleischer was warning all Americans "need to watch what they say". In
2002, Dan Rather, an anchor with CBS news, said: "Now it is that fear
that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions."
© 2006 Independent News and Media Limited
###
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4.: 9/11 Pentagon Research Interview! NOW WHAT?
Posted by: "APFN" mailto:apfn@apfn.org?Subject=Re: klvnetacom
Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:56 am (PST)
9/11 Pentagon Research Interview! NOW WHAT?
<http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=102256;title=APFN> -The Charles Goyette Show...., Thu Jun 22
13:47

6/22/06 - The Charles Goyette Show....
Russell Pickering... 9/11 Pentagon Research Interview! NOW WHAT?
AUDIO: (Aprox. 50 min)
http://www.apfn.net/pogo/A002I060622-goyette2.MP3
<http://www.apfn.net/pogo/A002I060622-goyette2.MP3>

9/11 Commission Report "Comic" Book
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/comic.html
<http://www.pentagonresearch.com/comic.html>

INTRODUCTION
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/
<http://www.pentagonresearch.com/>

Why investigate 9/11? The simple answer is because the current
administration has failed to do so. The official investigation
has been handled poorly by any standards and the information
released to the American public well after the fact is woefully
inadequate. But yet they have used 9/11 to justify a number of
policies that affect us all. That day has changed our world
forever and I want to understand why. I realize that lives have
been dramatically altered by these events and intend nothing but
respect for the passengers and crew of Flight 77, the Pentagon
workers and their families. I would also like to acknowledge the
soldier's and their families who have given beyond words.

If my life had been lost in one of these events I would
appreciate people asking honest questions about what happened.
That is how I approach this. This is not a partisan effort on my
part - it is every citizens right to know. I would ask the same
questions of anybody in charge.

It is my goal to present as much observational information as
possible to assist in the process of determining what really
happened that day, specifically at the Pentagon. Realize that the
Pentagon could release 60 seconds of video from the security
videos the FBI now admits to having, but refuses to release, and
put this all to rest. They have showed us footage from the first
WTC bombing, Madrid, London, and the WTC Towers. In other words,
from every other event except the Pentagon......why? It is the
administration's defiant choice not to provide American citizens
with the complete facts in this case.

The information on this website will mostly be represented in
photographs and documented quotes. I've attempted to determine
the time and location of events on the Pentagon grounds. I have
also done my best to identify the photographers for each photo.
On the Scene Map page you will see a location guide to important
elements of the incident. The sidebars contain most of the
detailed information and large photos. For my photo use policy
you can check the Photo Use page.

I will warn you in advance that I will appear to contradict
myself, or more accurately the evidence will contradict itself. I
will present alternative points-of-view to my own ideas. I can
assure you my disposition is to understand the truth. It would be
a relief to have all of my questions answered and to understand
this. On the other hand, I believe there is much more to this
incident than a terrorist attack on our nation with no other
factors involved.

To be honest with you, I myself am confused by what I see at the
Pentagon. You will see evidence to support the official story.
You will also see evidence that makes it difficult to believe the
official story. I've tried to present both fairly. Hopefully the
questions raised here will produce answers or stimulate you to
continue your own research. If you read this and have insights,
new information, or photos of your own that can assist in the
investigation, I encourage you to share them. If you can prove
something here that I've missed I'll post your article on that
page and give you credit or leave you anonymous depending on your
wishes.

Sometimes in a chaotic circumstance it's best to think of how the
events might have unfolded. This story could have been a news
article about a terrorist plot that was thwarted by Intelligence.
Then it could have been the capture of several of the 19 alleged
hijackers on four separate flights at three different
international airports with knives, box cutters, mace and bombs.
Or it could have been an interception of the aircraft by NORAD
(Flight 93 is the only plane that didn't make its target). After
the fact, there should have been an immediate independent
investigation into all four events. Every detail of what happened
could have been forensically determined and publicized without
any threat to national security. Then all of the lessons would be
implemented to protect future generations from similar tragedy.

In reality there was no government intervention prior to the
attacks. There are no NTSB, FAA, or FBI accident reports on any
of the four planes. The 9/11 Commission was created over 1 year
later after the White House, "ended its opposition to an
independent commission to investigate all aspects of the
September 11th terror attacks" (CNN)
<http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/20/independent.probe/index.html> . The Commission was given only 18 months and an
original budget of $3 million dollars to figure out what
happened. The timing of the final report was even adjusted so
that it didn't come out during election season. The reports that
the Commission used to investigate 9/11 were written after the
evidence from WTC and the Pentagon was already destroyed. Nobody
has been held accountable and Osama Bin Laden is still at large.
What we did get are volumes of new laws that violate our
Constitutional rights and the invasion of two countries with
thousands of human beings killed and thousands more permanently
disabled. How did this happen?

This is where I begin my piece of the investigation. I've decided
to focus strictly on the Pentagon attack. There are many great
sites out there that look into the various aspects of 9/11. You
will find a few throughout this site (all links on this site will
open in a separate window). We'll start with the six basic
possibilities of what could have happened at the Pentagon,
examine the Boeing 757-200, look at the Pentagon's structure in
the impact area and venture above Washington D.C. to analyze the
attack path. After that we'll look at the the photographic
evidence on the ground and follow the debris trail to the exit
hole. For people new to this subject it may be useful to go
through this site sequentially.

The information on this site will change and be updated as new
information is available. I apologize to those with slower
internet connections. On the sidebar pages I have left the photos
large to allow for the best inspection possible.

COALITION CASUALTIES <http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx>
IRAQ CASUALTIES <http://www.iraqbodycount.org/>
LEGISLATION SINCE 9/11 <http://thomas.loc.gov/home/terrorleg.htm>

--------------------------
APFN - FLIGHT 77 INFO AND LINKS:
HTTP://WWW.APFN.ORG/APFN/FLIGHT77.HTM
<HTTP://WWW.APFN.ORG/APFN/FLIGHT77.HTM>

# # #

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5.: Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject=Re: drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:05 am (PST)
June 23, 2006

Professors of Paranoia?
Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories

By JOHN GRAVOIS

9-11: Professors of paranoia?

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i42/42a01001.htm
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6a.: Loose (with words, no) Change video
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject=Re: rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:36 am (PST)
Ole,

I'll take that as a question. What are some errors in Loose Change?

I do not claim that Dylan Avery is an conspirator. I realize the
video contains much wonderful video and reveals some great evidence.
I'm concerned about the enormous amount of falsities in the video,
and the overall impact the video has on creating full, truthful
disclosure of events. I will never recommend the video and will only
mention its name while making a person aware of the exceedingly
misleading and deceptive errors within it and the dangerous,
suggestive, essentially sinister methods used by the video to
accomplish its mission.

The biggest error is the no-757 claim, a claim that the video spends
half its time on. All evidence, when correctly, carefully, and non-
speculatively viewed, agrees that a 757 hit the Pentagon. The no-757
claim is doing the worst damage to the 911 truth movement, especially
since it seperates the military (pentagon) witnesses that truly know
a 757 hit from those who claim no 757 hit but instead a military
plane or missile hit. That's called winning by dividing and
conquering.

Careful and considerate investigations by many researchers has
revealed that the planes of 911 were remotely controlled, the
passengers/pilots were disabled somehow (probably by remote activated
gas of some sort, or by duped "terrorists" who were decieved into
thinking they were on a different type of mission), that most in
government, including positions in the military, CIA, FBI, and other
departments, were duped themselves and taken advantage of by a small
network of individuals within the government, that war games and
numerous other emergency drills were being run on September 11th, and
they were continuations of anti-terrorist and other emergency
preparation drills that were regularly practiced prior to 911.
The "war games" included the use of remotely controlled planes
simulated to be hijacked by terrorists. The games and emergency
drills were prepared and run by the Military, CIA, and other
government bodies, and on September 11th, some individuals made the
hijackings real, duping everyone else who continued under the
impression practice games were only being played. Who exactly knew
what and when they knew it is difficult to determine because of
security rules, compartmentalization, secret programs, and the
general very complicated manner in which governmental systems work,
especially within the CIA, FBI, and Military. The secret agencies of
the US are very large and almost have a life of their own and are not
completely controlled by the administration, even as the
administration is quite extremist and secret control oriented.

While the video propels a person to conclude something is very wrong
with the official 911 story, which there is of course, it invites so
much speculation, innuendo, and jumping to conclusions that in the
end, the only thing that can be sensibly agreed upon is that
something ain't right. But that doesn't help discovery if people are
lured into promoting and following false leads that are easily
disproven by witnesses, such as Pentagon witnesses, who saw the real
life event. The video promotes the much of the opposite of which it
apparently desires to promote.

Accuracy is needed, and where accuracy isn't possible, that must be
admitted, without depending on speculation to make a case. The video
is very suggestive throughout, and seductively lures the viewer into
loose thinking. It passes off many truthful points, but never does
it get anywhere near the full truth. Mixed in its good points, are
dozens of specious claims or extremely pointed suggestions that can
lead to all kinds of false conclusions.

All the conspirators need to do to prevent full discovery of 911
events is to maintain confusion, unorganized thoughts, unsureness,
and weak conflicting claims. The video does this. The claim of no-
757, for the inexperienced and speculation driven investigator, is a
beguiling and treacherous booby trap for the unwary to get sucked
into.

Hoffman goes into detail on the matter quite well:

http://www.911research.com/essays/pentagontrap.html

The controlled explosive collapse of the towers, from top down, and
the Wtc7 collapse are obvious. Why not focus on that for half a
video, instead of on the very flawed no-757 claim?

The perpetrators who pulled off 911 have a lot of motivation and need
to remain unexposed and obviously have a massive ability to run very
deceptive and sinister cover up missions. They won't be stopping on
September 11th, dusting off their hands, and calling their work
done. The secret means they used are still in operation, that's why
911 is so long in being uncovered. They will take advantage of how
the government works, how society works, how individuals work. They
are more than simple bank robbers. It's evident that "psy-ops", or a
major misinformation program, is being promoted by these perpetrators.
We have to be careful what we choose to speculate on and believe. We
need to stand on solid ground when we make conclusions.

In view of the above, lets consider the possibility that Loose
Change might be working in favour of the conspirators, and lets see
how it could be doing that.

Loose Change is grounded in speculation and suggestion, leaving it
for the wise and capable viewer to "make their own conclusions".
That's advice that is followed by half a video that focuses on
extremely misdirecting no-757 suggestions. Who can accuse the video
producers of error or guilt? Afterall, they are only making
suggestions and its the viewer who is making the conclusions. That's
called slick manipulation, something a CIA agent (or similar secret
operative) is paid to do. An innocent citizen who unknowingly
accomplishes this for an agent is called a dupe, patsy, sucker, etc.

The video introduction opens with quick flash backs to statements
made by Bush and others, to images of the towers, and other images
and statements that can be looked at suspiciously. It's like
watching a modern video that flicks all over the place, with no time
to think. The video is preying on emotional reactions, in other
words. I.e, feelings are being promoted, not careful, logical,
rational thinking. That's a technique capitalized on by the original
911 event, especially the tower destructions. Rush to conclusions
everyone, and go get the terrorist who did this, while you are
rushing.

Note the music playing, the attractive, seductive, stirring, dramatic
music. Is music like this played in courtrooms, science labs, police
departments,etc as they uncover the truth, or do we usually only hear
this type of music in hollywood movies that attempt to fool us into
reacting emotionally to the viewed events as if they were real and
true? Later the music is more catchy and modern.

From the start, Bush is portrayed as guilty and as the directing
force, the master of the disaster. In reality, Bush is a puppet who
has a low intellectual ability. He delegates and follows delegates
advice, shakes people's hands and takes pictures and reads out loud
what he is told to read out loud. Bush didn't do it. The video is
directing our gaze away from the real perpetrators, who remain very
difficult to expose. 911 is much more than a political stunt and goes
far beyond political parties. Bush slowly realized after 8:30 am Sept
11 that something was going on other than what he thought was going
on. He's guilty of criminal negligence and severe neglect of duty.
One can't say the same for all others in his administration.

There are great shots shown of the towers controlled destruction and
many good statements by witnesses and interview subjects. Some
comments, such as bombs in the basement, leave the collapse wide open
for speculation.

Since the video spend so much time on the Pentagon, I'll comment on
its points.

First, the flight path in is easily accomplished by an airliner, even
as it is not normal for an airliner to drop 7000 ft in 2.5 minutes.
It easily can, but is not customary to do so because it is carrying
passengers wanting comfort, normally. A few air traffic controller
apparently stated they thought the plane was a military plane because
of the way it flew. That's correct. It wasn't flying like a
conventional passenger plane. It was dropping somewhat fast and
circling in on the Pentagon. The controllers were not saying it was
a military plane, they were only saying it appeared to be one due to
its flight pattern.

Donald Rumsfeld made a comment in which his tongue "slipped", some
might conclude. Was that a purposeful or accidental slip? Is
Rumsfeld one of the conspirators and interested in spreading false
information and suggestions? A celebrated and extremely successful
ploy of secret operatives is to spread false ideas, while appearing
innocent. Rumsfeld is no dummy, he's a brilliant person and a
careful, patient strategist. Rumsfeld's comment more than anything
else implicates him as a perpetrator.

Analysis of flight 77's flight path reveals it was only travelling
around 350 mph, max, when it hit the Pentagon, meaning it was flying
at a similar speed in the minutes before the crash as it circled the
Pentagon and was losing altitude. It was making a 250 to 270 degree
turn, but the entire turn was 4 or more miles in diameter at least.
That makes for low G-forces and an easy maneouver for a 757. There is
no danger of a high speed stall in the least. The video claims it was
going 530 mph, but that is unsupported and disagrees with available
evidence.

See the following for a dsicussion
http://perso.orange.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/trj-path.html

Hani Hanjour evidently could not fly a 757, nor was he flying flight
77. Loose Change gets it right there, using sensible points.

The claim made about light poles is nonsense. The earlier crash by
the Bush plane only hit the light pole in the process of crashing. It
only lost its wing after it hit the ground. All to be expected.
Traffic light poles are designed to break off easily when hit by
vehicles, to limit damage and injury in vehicle collisions with
poles. It doesn't take much to down a light pole, particularly when
its hit up high. An airliner the size of a 757 going 350 mph will
easily blow down or knock down flimsy light poles in its path or near
its path. Just its engine exhaust could easily do it. At the
Pentagon, however, the poles were knocked down by coming in constact
with the wings, for the most part. There's no problem here, and no
need to make nonsensical claims to support groundless speculation,
such as Loose Change does regarding the light poles. The pole
damage "mystery" is typical of how Loose Change, like other poor
research, so frequently makes a story out of nothing to lure in
unsuspecting, gullible, improperly informed armchair investigators.

Again, the plane did not rip 5 light poles out of the ground, as the
video falsely and very exageratively claims. The wings clipped the
poles, resulting in the light poles being toppled from their
pedestals which they were bolted lightly to, ensuring they'd easily
fall down if hit by a vehicle.

Light pole damage:
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lamps.html
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20041122-0
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lamps.html

Then there's the lawn damage claims. It's very clear from all
evidence and eyewitness reports that the 757 hit the side of the
Pentagon and did not hit the lawn before it hit the Pentagon. The 757
Smashed into the wall of the Pentagon and entered into the first
floor area, mostly. It's wings hit just at and just below the foot
thick 2nd floor surface, meaning they hit a very solid, immoveable
object, and the remains of the wings were forced down into the first
floor space and into the plentiful columns of the first floor area.
About 95 feet of reinforced concrete and rock first floor wall, 2
feet thick, was taken out completely. The fuselage, being above the
wings mostly, punched a 17 foot diameter hole mostly in the 2nd floor
space, as it should have.

Here's a description of the outside wall area damage.

http://www.911research.com/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/composite.htm
l
Regarding 757 plane debris at the Pentagon, consider the following
article:

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

The Loose Change narrator uses leading language in a very abusive
manner.

For example, out of the blue, the following statement is made:

"If flight 77 had crashed landed and skidded into the Pentagon, it
would have looked like this."

The video proceeds to show an airplane crash in which a plane
skidded across an open area and broke up.

Then the video shows that there is no lawn damage at the Pentagon.

One doesn't have to be a genius to see the obvious, embarrassing
false logic and manipulation being used here. First of all, Loose
Change suggests that a plane hitting an open area creates tremendous
damage to the area. Then the video makes the claim that since there
is no damage on the Pentagon lawn like in the pictured plane crash,
no 757 must have hit the Pentagon.

All that the Loose Change chatter proves is that the 757 that hit the
Pentagon didn't hit the lawn first. Consistent with all the evidence,
including dozens of eyewitness reports, the 757 hit the side of the
Pentagon first, then crushed and disintegrated as it punched through
the wall, then a huge explosion occurred, followed by a tremendously
devastating fire. Just as can be expected sensibly and reasonably. Of
course no skid marks, impact holes, etc are going to be seen on the
lawn. Flight 77 didn't hit the lawn. It flew directly into the
building coming in at a very, very shallow angle, quite close to the
ground in the last seconds, just like all eyewitnesses reported.

Loose Change is making something out of nothing, and does it this
frequently regarding the Pentagon event. The video makers motives
become suspect after several false speculations. I'll be kind, and
possibly naive, and give them the benefit of the doubt.

The video goes on to make absurd claims that the official claims said
the plane was vapourized by flames in the crash, as an official
excuse for why so little debris was supposedly seen. In reality,
there was tonnes of metal debris all over the place. One can't expect
too much plastic and flammable debris, of course. A lot of a plane's
interior is made of highly flammable plastic products.

Regarding 757 plane debris at the Pentagon, consider the following
article:

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Hoffman revelations add sensibility to the subject with the following:

http://www.911research.com/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/debris.html

Note specifically the crash test of a Phantom F4 fighter:

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/crashdebris.html

Be sure to realize that flight 77 hit the pentagon at about 350 mph
and at an oblique angle of around 45 degrees, unlike the F4 which hit
head-on a ten foot thick concrete wall. Note that the Pentagon wall
was only about 2 feet thick. As well, a 757 is a very long narrow
tube structure and not nearly as robust as a small, compact fighter
jet. Taking these facts into consideration, it is no surprise that,
compared to the Phantom jet crash test, flight 77 didn't vaporize or
absolutely disintegrate into nothing, but rather broke up into mostly
small pieces with the larger, more solid dense structures like the
engines and landing gear being still recognizeable. The thin skin of
the craft was for the most part shredded, except for some sectons.
The plane entered into the building, of course, and was further
busted up and rearranged before the nose landing gear and connected
parts broke through the far side wall of the first floor area, and
made the C ring hole, naturally.

Again, there is no mystery here. Abusive speculation will only lead
to needless and warrantless confusion, misconception,
misunderstanding, false ideas, baseless accusations, and more
nonsense.

The Loose Change video mixes itself up again when it makes the
assertions that 184 of 189 bodies were identified, yet it also
asserts the government claims fire evaporated the metal plane
completely, in its (Loose Change's) attempts to prove that a 757
didn't hit the Pentagon. What nonsense they do. This is another
example of making a straw man statement, and then deflating the straw
man claim with a counter claim. Loose Change is itself creating the
original false and misleading claim that it claims to be disproving
by bringing up truthful claims. Yes, 184 of 189 bodies were
recovered. But no, a fire did not vaporize the entire plane. There
are no inconsistencies here. Their argument is a blatantly false and
misleading argument and their argument gives no support to the
ridiculous no-757 claim. Rather, to the critical and perceptive
viewer, their claims make Loose Change look very bad, even very
suspect.

The video terribly abuses its set up fire vaporization of metal
strawman claim. It goes into the titanium engines. The actual engine
part of a 757 is only 3 feet in diameter, and about 8 feet long. The
shrouding around it is 11 feet or so in diameter, and includes the
large fan we see on all jet engines. That fan is not the engine, its
just a fragile air fan. The dense titanium engine parts are in the
central parts of the entire assembly. Think of a engine of a car in
relation to the body of the car. The actual engine is small and
compact. 757 engine components are shown in photos of the debris at
the Pentagon.

See http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/turbofans.html.

There are many sites that show photos of various 757 debris,
including broken fuselage parts, landing gear, engine parts, aircraft
skin, and more.

Regarding Boeing, of course Boeing is not going to hand out all sorts
of information on its plane construction. It has a business to take
care of and competitors, etc. Despite their reluctance to share
details of their planes construction (understandably), there is
enough information available on the net and elsewhere for researchers
to easily determine the pieces that make up a Boeing 757.

The "controversy" the video makes over the "APU" wheel is very
manufactured, again. The photos on Loose Change shows an easily
identifiable engine part, a rotor part, of one of the main engines of
a 757, and the photo is taken in front of and OUTSIDE of the
Pentagon, though the video implies this rotor is a single engine
(when its really only a part of the engine) that was found INSIDE the
Pentagon. More abuse of language and misrepresentation of facts are
made in order to make it seem like something isn't right. Other
photos show engine pieces clearly inside the Pentagon amongst a mess
of other engine parts, such as a gas diffuser.

Carrying on, Loose Change sets the gullible viewer up by making
the moronic claim that the engine seen in the picture couldn't be an
APU, in its attempt to thus conclude that no 757 hit the Pentagon.
Well....sigh... of course what is shown in the picture is not an APU
(auxillary power unit) of a 757! Its a part of a Rolls Royce RB211-
535E4B engine that is a standard, normal part of a Boeing 757-200
plane, which is the very type of 757 flown by AA that hit the
Pentagon. The APU, a small power turbine located in the very tail end
of the 757, is a Honeywell GTC P331-200 APU, and is not shown in any
commonly seen debris photos. So Loose Change rambles on to describe
how Bollyn, another suspicious promoter of the no-757 nonsense,
contacted Honeywell to see if they recognize this part as an APU
part! Of course Honeywell will say it isn't something they make, or
an APU of theirs (it's not a photo of an APU!!) Duh! Then, more
deviously, the video says Bollyn went to Pratt and Whitney and was
told by them to go to Rolls Royce. Gee! How unexpected of Pratt and
Whitney to send Bollyn to Rolls Royce to try and identify engine
parts on a 757 that is known by Pratt and Whitney to carry Rolls
Royce engines. Do you think Bollyn was going to Pratt and Whitney
asking about a normal 757 engine, when he had just been to Honeywell,
as Loose Change represents, asking about APU's, a very small
auxillary engine in comparison?

And then what do we immediately get from Loose Change? Some more
twisted story telling and misrepresented cherry picked statements.
On the video it shows an article that states: "John Brown, an RR
spokesman, had PREVIOUSlY told AFP (Bollyn) 'it is not a part from
any Rolls Royce engine I am familiar with, and certainly not the
AE3007H made HERE IN INDY" (my emphasis). This clearly indicates that
Bollyn had asked the Rolls Royce spokesman sometime BEFORE he talked
to the Pratt and Whitney spokesman about the AE3007H engine, and that
Bollyn was contacting a Rolls Royce plant that ONLY made AE3007
engines, and that Bollyn was looking for an APU SIZED engine (similar
to the AE3007H size). The AE3007H, the article points out (if one
reads it a bit further, but which the video doesn't allow since the
video moves too fast), is a very small engine used in little planes
like the Cessna Citation and the unmanned Global Hawk, NOT a HUGE
airliner like a 757 that requires a HUGE engine in comparison. Can we
expect the "spokesman" to recognize all of Rolls Royce engine parts,
especially after the engine has been destroyed, and even if he
doesn't work in a plant that makes the parts in question? Good grief,
how thick does the wool have to be?

The Loose Change narrator adds further insult to injury, when he
doesn't read out what the written words of the article say, and
leaves it to us to trust that his words match the written words and
correctly relate their meaning, in proper context. He leaves out the
word "previously", and he conveniently neglects to include the part
of the quote where the spokesman says "and certainly not the AE3007H
made here in Indy". Nor does the narrator mention what the article
goes on to say about the AE3007H engine - that its a small engine for
small planes like Cessnas. Ie, Loose Change is fabricating a story
that decietfully misleads the viewer into making quick, poorly
thought out, rushed, mistaken conclusions. This is blatant dishonesty
by Loose Change, of the first order. I don't watch videos with
blinders on and my brain turned off.

Here are some straight facts about the 757's engines that legitimate
researchers revealed, by going to the appropriate manufacturers for
the correct confirming information. These legitimate investigators
were not looking to create confusion, doubt, and mystery, and no-757
baloney, but were rather establishing facts using honest methods.

http://perso.orange.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/wr-eng.html
http://www.911review.com/errors/pentagon/turbofans.html

The engines are easily identifiable and have been identified by
credible, legitimate, and honest researchers. The following minutes
of video speculation driven drivel on engine matters and crash debris
by Loose Change, after what I've gone over above, can be ignored, and
should be ignored by the wise. Those looking to understand how
manipulative language, cherry picking of quotes, taking words out of
context, and other dishonest poor research can lead gullible
individuals to live in speculation as if it is proven conclusion can
make a study of Loose Change here.

It is a false claim to say that the 757 was vaporized or
disintegrated completely. Loose Change makes both these claims by
promoting it as others claims first, and then refutes the claim, in
order to promote it's no-757 nonsense. Using the straw man fallacy
is Loose Change's favourite ploy, though it uses many others.

The "mysterious" blue tarp covered object which Loose Change wildly
speculates to contain some hidden items, is in actuality one of the
several light-weight half-cylindrical blue tents that were used for
various purposes by the clean up crews.

See http://www.pentagonresearch.com/090.html

The video goes on seemingly endlessly making ridiculuous suggestions,
false statements, and other nonsense driven speculation regarding the
Pentagon crash.

I showed some websites and articles that correctly describe the crash
site and the damage. The simplest solution to not getting sucked in
by Loose Change regarding the Pentagon is to do one's homework first
in establishing what happened there, using the plethora of great
information available at legitimate research sites, such as
www.911review.com and www.911research.com. Scholarsfortruth.com has
plenty of great information too.

Here is a great site that debunks Loose Change:

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/pentagon.html

In leaving, I'd like to say that its easy to spread nonsense,
confusion, and disinformation, and it makes for a long, weary job to
discredit all the nonsense that can be made out of nothing. Immense
time can be saved by learning from those that use and promote
respectable and legitimate research techniques while staying away
from speculation driven conclusions, illogical and fallacious
argument styles.

Here's a site that discusses logical arguments:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html

Loose Change is a very destructive video, particularly regarding the
Pentagon nonsense it spreads. Those that promote the video do so at a
tremendous risk of destroying the 911 truth movement, and they
further strengthen their own ability to turn their logical, rational,
sensible thinking abilities into a non sense.

I answered a question that was implied. I hope I have answered it
well enough. I could go on much, much more, but I'll let it be for
now. 911 isn't a game for the innocent or unwary or speculative,
uncareful, non-critically minded researcher.

Robert

More Pentagon facts and sensibilities:
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon.html

More debunking Loose Change and the no-757 scam:
http://www.oilempire.us/loose-change.html

Some eyewitness reports to review:
http://www.911research.com/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html

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Messages in this topic (2)
6b.: Re: Loose (with words, no) Change video
Posted by: "JP Liggett" mailto:JP@JPLiggett.com?Subject= jpliggett
Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:07 am (PST)
IMHO the pentagon video is too strong too deny, and will be used at the
treason trials of the pentagon staff and brass who executed 911. the only
way they can redeem themselves is to come forward with the truth, and
arrest the perpetrators.
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7a.: 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld announce of September 10
Posted by: "Dick Eastman" mailto:olfriend@nwinfo.net?Subject=Re: oldickeastman
Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:07 am (PST)
Dov Zakheim

Was this really announced on Sept. 10, 01? -- DE

From: foxhallgeorgetwn
To: frameup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:01 AM
Subject: [frameup] PENTAGON 911 DEATHS WERE COVERUP FOR RUMSFELD'S THEFT OF 2.3 TRILLION

PENTAGON 911 DEATHS WERE COVERUP FOR RUMSFELD'S THEFT OF 2.3 TRILLION

http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/06/flight-of-capital.html

Rigorous Intuition (v. 2.0)
What You Don't Know Can't Hurt Them.

Saturday, June 17, 2006

Flight of Capital

They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy.
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky. - Bob Dylan
This may be old news to you, but just a quick note here of something I'd missed
about Flight 77, thanks to "Bismillah" and the RI forum, that I hope you won't miss,
too.
At least among those with a mind for such things, it's fairly well-remembered that
on September 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld made the shocking announcement that the
Pentagon "couldn't track" $2.3 trillion of its transactions. "Iroquois" observes,
"What's interesting to me is that he made his press release on a Monday. In DC, I
always see bad news given on a Friday, usually late in the afternoon on Friday. The
exception, of course, would be when someone happens to know that there is a far
bigger story coming out."
And we know that Flight 77, allegedly piloted by an incompetent, made an aerobatic,
spiralling descent over Washington, effecting a 270-degree turn to strike the
Pentagon from a western approach at ground level. The side struck was the only one
with an exterior wall hardened against attack, and was relatively empty while
renovation continued.
Relatively. The unfortunate construction workers perished outside, but who were
the expendables within?
From The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, December 20, 2001: "One Army office in the
Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office,
called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and
budget analysts. They were at their desks when American Airlines Flight 77 struck."
The Arlington County After-Action Report noted that the "impact area included both
the Navy operations center and the office complex of the National Guard and Army
Reserve. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information
was in the damaged area." And Insight Magazine editorialized that "the Department
of the Army, headed by former Enron executive Thomas White, had an excuse [for
not making a full accounting]. In a shocking appeal to sentiment it says it didn't
publish a "stand-alone" financial statement for 2001 because of "the loss of
financial-management personnel sustained during the Sept. 11 terrorist attack."
High Crimes of State often come down to the movement of capital, and so the high
criminals generally share the gray and black economics of common felons. Money is
money; it's the magnitude of the heist that's different, and the means to effect and
cover-up the crime. And part of the cover-up of the Pentagon heist has been the
no-plane shell game, played smartly by Rumsfeld himself who "misspoke" that a
"missile" had struck the Pentagon the same week Thierry Meyssen's original
no-plane website was launched.
It's such disinformation that has drilled irrelevance and folly into a once potentially
dangerous and angry army of authentic skeptics.

posted by Jeff at 12:15 PM

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Messages in this topic (2)
7b.: Re: 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld announce of Septembe
Posted by: "Pay_the_Piper" mailto:pay_the_piper@shaw.ca?Subject=
Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:49 am (PST)
Think of the AI one might develop with that kind of money!

PtP

----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Eastman
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: [911TruthAction] 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld announce of September 10, 2001? $2.3 TRILLION could not be tracked

Dov Zakheim

Was this really announced on Sept. 10, 01? -- DE

From: foxhallgeorgetwn
To: frameup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:01 AM
Subject: [frameup] PENTAGON 911 DEATHS WERE COVERUP FOR RUMSFELD'S THEFT OF 2.3 TRILLION

PENTAGON 911 DEATHS WERE COVERUP FOR RUMSFELD'S THEFT OF 2.3 TRILLION

http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/06/flight-of-capital.html

Rigorous Intuition (v. 2.0)
What You Don't Know Can't Hurt Them.

Saturday, June 17, 2006

Flight of Capital

They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy.
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky. - Bob Dylan
This may be old news to you, but just a quick note here of something I'd missed
about Flight 77, thanks to "Bismillah" and the RI forum, that I hope you won't miss,
too.
At least among those with a mind for such things, it's fairly well-remembered that
on September 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld made the shocking announcement that the
Pentagon "couldn't track" $2.3 trillion of its transactions. "Iroquois" observes,
"What's interesting to me is that he made his press release on a Monday. In DC, I
always see bad news given on a Friday, usually late in the afternoon on Friday. The
exception, of course, would be when someone happens to know that there is a far
bigger story coming out."
And we know that Flight 77, allegedly piloted by an incompetent, made an aerobatic,
spiralling descent over Washington, effecting a 270-degree turn to strike the
Pentagon from a western approach at ground level. The side struck was the only one
with an exterior wall hardened against attack, and was relatively empty while
renovation continued.
Relatively. The unfortunate construction workers perished outside, but who were
the expendables within?
From The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, December 20, 2001: "One Army office in the
Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office,
called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and
budget analysts. They were at their desks when American Airlines Flight 77 struck."
The Arlington County After-Action Report noted that the "impact area included both
the Navy operations center and the office complex of the National Guard and Army
Reserve. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information
was in the damaged area." And Insight Magazine editorialized that "the Department
of the Army, headed by former Enron executive Thomas White, had an excuse [for
not making a full accounting]. In a shocking appeal to sentiment it says it didn't
publish a "stand-alone" financial statement for 2001 because of "the loss of
financial-management personnel sustained during the Sept. 11 terrorist attack."
High Crimes of State often come down to the movement of capital, and so the high
criminals generally share the gray and black economics of common felons. Money is
money; it's the magnitude of the heist that's different, and the means to effect and
cover-up the crime. And part of the cover-up of the Pentagon heist has been the
no-plane shell game, played smartly by Rumsfeld himself who "misspoke" that a
"missile" had struck the Pentagon the same week Thierry Meyssen's original
no-plane website was launched.
It's such disinformation that has drilled irrelevance and folly into a once potentially
dangerous and angry army of authentic skeptics.

posted by Jeff at 12:15 PM

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Messages in this topic (2)

8.: Dead accountants -- 9-11 motive clue: What did Donald Rumsfeld anno
Posted by: "Dick Eastman" mailto:olfriend@nwinfo.net?Subject=Re: oldickeastman
Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:18 am (PST)
Dov Zakheim

Was it really Sept. 10th that the loss of the money was announced? -- DE
----------------------------------------------------------

PENTAGON 911 DEATHS WERE COVERUP FOR RUMSFELD'S THEFT OF 2.3 TRILLION

http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/06/flight-of-capital.html

Rigorous Intuition (v. 2.0)
What You Don't Know Can't Hurt Them.

Saturday, June 17, 2006

Flight of Capital

They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy.
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky. - Bob Dylan

This may be old news to you, but just a quick note here of something I'd missed
about Flight 77, thanks to "Bismillah" and the RI forum, that I hope you won't miss,
too.

At least among those with a mind for such things, it's fairly well-remembered that
on September 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld made the shocking announcement that the
Pentagon "couldn't track" $2.3 trillion of its transactions. "Iroquois" observes,
"What's interesting to me is that he made his press release on a Monday. In DC, I
always see bad news given on a Friday, usually late in the afternoon on Friday. The
exception, of course, would be when someone happens to know that there is a far
bigger story coming out."

And we know that Flight 77, allegedly piloted by an incompetent, made an aerobatic,
spiralling descent over Washington, effecting a 270-degree turn to strike the
Pentagon from a western approach at ground level. The side struck was the only one
with an exterior wall hardened against attack, and was relatively empty while
renovation continued.
Relatively. The unfortunate construction workers perished outside, but who were
the expendables within?
From The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, December 20, 2001: "One Army office in the
Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office,
called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and
budget analysts. They were at their desks when American Airlines Flight 77 struck."
The Arlington County After-Action Report noted that the "impact area included both
the Navy operations center and the office complex of the National Guard and Army
Reserve. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information
was in the damaged area." And Insight Magazine editorialized that "the Department
of the Army, headed by former Enron executive Thomas White, had an excuse [for
not making a full accounting]. In a shocking appeal to sentiment it says it didn't
publish a "stand-alone" financial statement for 2001 because of "the loss of
financial-management personnel sustained during the Sept. 11 terrorist attack."
High Crimes of State often come down to the movement of capital, and so the high
criminals generally share the gray and black economics of common felons. Money is
money; it's the magnitude of the heist that's different, and the means to effect and
cover-up the crime. And part of the cover-up of the Pentagon heist has been the
no-plane shell game, played smartly by Rumsfeld himself who "misspoke" that a
"missile" had struck the Pentagon the same week Thierry Meyssen's original
no-plane website was launched.
It's such disinformation that has drilled irrelevance and folly into a once potentially
dangerous and angry army of authentic skeptics.

posted by Jeff at 12:15 PM
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Messages in this topic (1)

9a.: Re: moderator 911 focus?
Posted by: "Pay_the_Piper" mailto:pay_the_piper@shaw.ca?Subject=
Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:57 pm (PST)
Thank you. I'm just wondering what others think the closest is to "smoking gun evidence". So far IMO the best is (1) The BYU prof who says he has proof that thermite was used in the twin towers job; (2) The resistance to doing the standard debris/autopsy report on the Pentagon crash. Others?

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

wow, a smarty comes forward, and decides to head toward the core?!?!?!

I'm impressed, and invigorated! albeit, just woke-up ... and still a bit a cognitive mess! Q;o) let me ponder this unexpected gift, this sunshine of hope breaking through ropes, dopes & cognitive dissonant critters which constantly try to neuter the nest.

some thingks do already come to mind, which I submit at this time to your sublime benign mind to entertain, if you would be so kind?:

>>>
After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?
<<<<<

why should anyone die, when the enemy is within ourselves?

Accountability/Justice is Key Core King Meme all other meme's of 'Authority' adore, by default ... {which the entropy/corruption abhor to a fault}

Obstruction Of Justice/Accountability ... currently a tragectly under used meme
and the appaling/negligent trajection of that absence continues to carve out the justice we otherwise seek, ... such is a self-inflicted cancer upon that which otherwise claims to be opposite the Obstruction of Justice (an identity crises to say the least! cognitive dissonance cripples ... defeat!

If WE are not going to demand/function Accountability within ourselves, within our minds, within the yahoo groups we come to function toward the Accountability we supposedly seek ... well then ladies & gents, we are the lie lying to itself ... if such is the state of affairs we will continue to wreak, then we are the enemy cancer eating ourselves & eachother toward our defeat ... and if such is the condition continued to be allowed to continue to condition us to retreat from said Accountability (we supposedly seek) via plausible deniability clouds of diplomatic immunity we learned from our masters, ... if so be the case ... then let us at least remember to stand proud at our final breath of freedom, in the sublime doublespeak in which we neutered ourselves, let us radiate our disgrace to the devil itself, the lie within, our dark shadow twin, that without our daily complicity, the master slave racket routine would not have paid the dividends so dark & foul, nor would our zombie-borg status rule earth having vanguished the individual responsbility sovereign sourge ... had we borg not functioned accountability meme against itself hypocritically to supress all those individuals that saw through our doublespeak distractions, and moved to wield the Sword of Accountability against the entropy cancer we used hypocritically to subdue humanity ... if it was not for us borg lying deep within ... the enemy within ... humanity would never have fallen

ok ... better stop there ... for now ... thanks, that was invigorating, and hope that such sufficed as payment enough, dear Piper, for the gift you brang?

(please excuse spelling&grammer snafus

Q;o)
luv&bugs

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Cc: letters@newstatesman.co.uk ; weekly@guardian.co.uk ; stletters@telegraph.co.uk ; letters@independent.co.uk ; letter@sunday-times.co.uk ; iraqdebate@channel14.com ; editor@observer.co.uk ; dailyemail@bbc.co.uk ; agenda@bbc.co.uk ; editor@sundayherald.com ; defence@sen.parl.gc.ca ; espritdecorp@idirect.com ; information@forces.gc.ca ; cowan-j@rmc.ca ; day.s@parl.gc.ca ; oconnor.g@parl.gc.ca ; editor@tor.sunpub.com ; city@thestar.ca ; cbcnews@nm.cbc.ca ; newscomments@theherald.canwest.com ; letters@lfpress.com ; oped@ott.sunpub.com ; localnews@tc.canwest.com ; olsen@ctv.ca ; newsroom@herald.ns.ca ; letters@leaderpost.canwest.com ; letters@thegazette.canwest.com ; barry.ron@nbpub.com ; letters@freepress.mb.ca ; national@cbc.ca ; lettertoed@thestar.ca ; letters@thetelegram.com ; letters@theguardian.pe.ca ; letters@thecitizen.southam.ca ; letters@macleans.ca ; letters@globeandmail.ca ; lastword@canada.com ; globalnational@canada.com ; feedback@counterspin.tv ; councillor_nunziata@city.toronto.on.ca ; councillor_chow@city.toronto.on.ca ; ask_us@ctv.ca ; "oneonone@toronto.cbc.ca"@prod.shaw.ca ; edit@tc.canwest.com ; whistleblower@ctv.ca ; info@westernstandard.ca ; yafi@discovery.ca ; comments@discovery.ca ; CANADIAN_CONSTITUTION@yahoogroups.ca
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

What about the focus within this focus? Is there a single smoking-gun piece
of evidence which should be focused on to clear this matter up?

For example, what about the debris/autopsy for Flight 77 which allegedly hit
the Pentagon? When will the public see it?

Maybe YAFI which has shown us other commercial airline debris/autopsy
reports can answer.

After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?

PtP

----- Original Message -----
From: "ruxpert" <ruxpert@yahoo.com>
To: <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:34 PM
Subject: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

> This group has been created to provide a discussion forum for people
> dedicated to disseminating the truth of the U.S. Government's
> complicity in the atrocities of September, 11th, 2001.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/911TruthAction/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Messages in this topic (8)
9b.: Re: moderator 911 focus?
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject= drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:49 pm (PST)
I recommend continuing focus progressing via/toward the core

Accountability / Justice

the 'Authority' juncture of our American apparatus / 'system'

(like as in 'cause&effect' upon which system of science pivots)

for via such, though I we walk through the valley of schlock we need fear no weasel Q;o)

there is no clearly more substantiated 'Aurhority' than that to lean on, serve, surrender, up hold, use, to protect one and all's position within the American dream meme system of Accountability/Justice functioning and functioned by the personal responsbility of the sovereign individual(s) ... ... (and if you are not about that, than WE are not of the same mind/system, my dear betraying brother Q;o)

so with that most Most esteemed Authority backdrop 'getting/got our back' ... WE simply apply Accountability's/Justice's 'Obstruction of Justice' lever/mandate/authority tool

it's like reverse engineering cancer corruption to tell on itself (come clean) during the process of following Accountability/Justice Mandate Authority regarding most efficiently first, top crimes, top down, police police the police ... that's how the system is supposed to work, when not hijacked/usurped doublespeaked, OBSTRUCTED!

Obstruction of Justice is the tell tale device for sure

there are so many mucho tools in the collective bag of evidence ...that if we start applying/practicing the system amongst 'Ourselves' supposedly claiming to be in support of said system ... we will align the numbers needed to compel the hijackers to surrender our apparatus but whatever means manifests as such will inevitably happen as the numbers/support behind the system of Accountability/Justice align/focus/agree to stop Obstructing Justice/Accountability ... regardless of method/racket

the sure secure mantra (that no body should be against) is ACCOUNTABILITY

and about 'Goverment Secrecy' ... hehe ... such represents perhaps the most profoundest racket/tool used by the usurpers/traitors/enemy to Obstruct Justice! please be clear on that one Q;o)

btw ... this is not up for debate, if your in support of the American system of Accountability/Justice (which btw functions to protect & serve Individual Sovereignty ... supposedly toward pursuit of happiness Q;o)

Yer either with us or against us

see the usurpation of our memes / system clearly

there is no need to remain weak docile divided needlessly

we simply need the numbers to enforce the system

bingo

focus / unite (we gotta stop being/helping the enemy)

danke mein gropen Fuhrers Q;o)

any questions?

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Cc: the-dialectic-of-the-dialectic@yahoogroups.com ; persians-jews-flies@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

Thank you. I'm just wondering what others think the closest is to "smoking gun evidence". So far IMO the best is (1) The BYU prof who says he has proof that thermite was used in the twin towers job; (2) The resistance to doing the standard debris/autopsy report on the Pentagon crash. Others?

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

wow, a smarty comes forward, and decides to head toward the core?!?!?!

I'm impressed, and invigorated! albeit, just woke-up ... and still a bit a cognitive mess! Q;o) let me ponder this unexpected gift, this sunshine of hope breaking through ropes, dopes & cognitive dissonant critters which constantly try to neuter the nest.

some thingks do already come to mind, which I submit at this time to your sublime benign mind to entertain, if you would be so kind?:

>>>
After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?
<<<<<

why should anyone die, when the enemy is within ourselves?

Accountability/Justice is Key Core King Meme all other meme's of 'Authority' adore, by default ... {which the entropy/corruption abhor to a fault}

Obstruction Of Justice/Accountability ... currently a tragectly under used meme
and the appaling/negligent trajection of that absence continues to carve out the justice we otherwise seek, ... such is a self-inflicted cancer upon that which otherwise claims to be opposite the Obstruction of Justice (an identity crises to say the least! cognitive dissonance cripples ... defeat!

If WE are not going to demand/function Accountability within ourselves, within our minds, within the yahoo groups we come to function toward the Accountability we supposedly seek ... well then ladies & gents, we are the lie lying to itself ... if such is the state of affairs we will continue to wreak, then we are the enemy cancer eating ourselves & eachother toward our defeat ... and if such is the condition continued to be allowed to continue to condition us to retreat from said Accountability (we supposedly seek) via plausible deniability clouds of diplomatic immunity we learned from our masters, ... if so be the case ... then let us at least remember to stand proud at our final breath of freedom, in the sublime doublespeak in which we neutered ourselves, let us radiate our disgrace to the devil itself, the lie within, our dark shadow twin, that without our daily complicity, the master slave racket routine would not have paid the dividends so dark & foul, nor would our zombie-borg status rule earth having vanguished the individual responsbility sovereign sourge ... had we borg not functioned accountability meme against itself hypocritically to supress all those individuals that saw through our doublespeak distractions, and moved to wield the Sword of Accountability against the entropy cancer we used hypocritically to subdue humanity ... if it was not for us borg lying deep within ... the enemy within ... humanity would never have fallen

ok ... better stop there ... for now ... thanks, that was invigorating, and hope that such sufficed as payment enough, dear Piper, for the gift you brang?

(please excuse spelling&grammer snafus

Q;o)
luv&bugs

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

What about the focus within this focus? Is there a single smoking-gun piece
of evidence which should be focused on to clear this matter up?

For example, what about the debris/autopsy for Flight 77 which allegedly hit
the Pentagon? When will the public see it?

Maybe YAFI which has shown us other commercial airline debris/autopsy
reports can answer.

After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?

PtP

----- Original Message -----
From: "ruxpert" <ruxpert@yahoo.com>
To: <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:34 PM
Subject: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

> This group has been created to provide a discussion forum for people
> dedicated to disseminating the truth of the U.S. Government's
> complicity in the atrocities of September, 11th, 2001.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/911TruthAction/
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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Messages in this topic (8)
9c.: Re: moderator 911 focus?
Posted by: "Pay_the_Piper" mailto:pay_the_piper@shaw.ca?Subject=
Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:03 pm (PST)
You make a good point about accountability. If the political establishment wants to assure the citizenry, they MUST answer these core questions (and I am sure there are others beyond the two below). To the extent that they do not, they foster justified suspicion and an undermining of any "War on Terror" because it looks like the enemy our soldiers are dying to defeat is only set-up to be the enemy. A greater enemy is behind the scenes, engineering both sides to be at each others' throats.

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

I recommend continuing focus progressing via/toward the core

Accountability / Justice

the 'Authority' juncture of our American apparatus / 'system'

clipped

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Cc: the-dialectic-of-the-dialectic@yahoogroups.com ; persians-jews-flies@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

Thank you. I'm just wondering what others think the closest is to "smoking gun evidence". So far IMO the best is (1) The BYU prof who says he has proof that thermite was used in the twin towers job; (2) The resistance to doing the standard debris/autopsy report on the Pentagon crash. Others?

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

wow, a smarty comes forward, and decides to head toward the core?!?!?!

I'm impressed, and invigorated! albeit, just woke-up ... and still a bit a cognitive mess! Q;o) let me ponder this unexpected gift, this sunshine of hope breaking through ropes, dopes & cognitive dissonant critters which constantly try to neuter the nest.

some thingks do already come to mind, which I submit at this time to your sublime benign mind to entertain, if you would be so kind?:

>>>
After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?
<<<<<

why should anyone die, when the enemy is within ourselves?

Accountability/Justice is Key Core King Meme all other meme's of 'Authority' adore, by default ... {which the entropy/corruption abhor to a fault}

Obstruction Of Justice/Accountability ... currently a tragectly under used meme
and the appaling/negligent trajection of that absence continues to carve out the justice we otherwise seek, ... such is a self-inflicted cancer upon that which otherwise claims to be opposite the Obstruction of Justice (an identity crises to say the least! cognitive dissonance cripples ... defeat!

If WE are not going to demand/function Accountability within ourselves, within our minds, within the yahoo groups we come to function toward the Accountability we supposedly seek ... well then ladies & gents, we are the lie lying to itself ... if such is the state of affairs we will continue to wreak, then we are the enemy cancer eating ourselves & eachother toward our defeat ... and if such is the condition continued to be allowed to continue to condition us to retreat from said Accountability (we supposedly seek) via plausible deniability clouds of diplomatic immunity we learned from our masters, ... if so be the case ... then let us at least remember to stand proud at our final breath of freedom, in the sublime doublespeak in which we neutered ourselves, let us radiate our disgrace to the devil itself, the lie within, our dark shadow twin, that without our daily complicity, the master slave racket routine would not have paid the dividends so dark & foul, nor would our zombie-borg status rule earth having vanguished the individual responsbility sovereign sourge ... had we borg not functioned accountability meme against itself hypocritically to supress all those individuals that saw through our doublespeak distractions, and moved to wield the Sword of Accountability against the entropy cancer we used hypocritically to subdue humanity ... if it was not for us borg lying deep within ... the enemy within ... humanity would never have fallen

ok ... better stop there ... for now ... thanks, that was invigorating, and hope that such sufficed as payment enough, dear Piper, for the gift you brang?

(please excuse spelling&grammer snafus

Q;o)
luv&bugs

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

What about the focus within this focus? Is there a single smoking-gun piece
of evidence which should be focused on to clear this matter up?

For example, what about the debris/autopsy for Flight 77 which allegedly hit
the Pentagon? When will the public see it?

Maybe YAFI which has shown us other commercial airline debris/autopsy
reports can answer.

After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?

PtP

----- Original Message -----
From: "ruxpert" <ruxpert@yahoo.com>
To: <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:34 PM
Subject: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

> This group has been created to provide a discussion forum for people
> dedicated to disseminating the truth of the U.S. Government's
> complicity in the atrocities of September, 11th, 2001.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/911TruthAction/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Messages in this topic (8)
9d.: Re: moderator 911 focus?
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject= drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:09 pm (PST)
THEY need/must stop Obstruction of Justice! Period!

let's please be clear, focused, united!

Q;o)
----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Cc: sensenbrenner@mail.house.gov ; john.congers@mail.house.gov ; ninthnet@mail.house.gov ; howard.coble@mail.house.gov ; william.delahunt@mail.house.gov ; mark.green@mail.house.gov ; john.hostettler@mail.house.gov ; martin.mehan@mail.house.gov ; bobby.scott@mail.house.gov ; weiner@mail.house.gov ; defence@sen.parl.gc.ca ; espritdecorp@idirect.com ; information@forces.gc.ca ; cowan-j@rmc.ca ; day.s@parl.gc.ca ; oconnor.g@parl.gc.ca ; LIBERTY-AND-JUSTICE@yahoogroups.com ; the-dialectic-of-the-dialectic@yahoogroups.com ; Loges-de-Corbeaux@smartgroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

You make a good point about accountability. If the political establishment wants to assure the citizenry, they MUST answer these core questions (and I am sure there are others beyond the two below). To the extent that they do not, they foster justified suspicion and an undermining of any "War on Terror" because it looks like the enemy our soldiers are dying to defeat is only set-up to be the enemy. A greater enemy is behind the scenes, engineering both sides to be at each others' throats.

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

I recommend continuing focus progressing via/toward the core

Accountability / Justice

the 'Authority' juncture of our American apparatus / 'system'

clipped

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Cc: the-dialectic-of-the-dialectic@yahoogroups.com ; persians-jews-flies@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

Thank you. I'm just wondering what others think the closest is to "smoking gun evidence". So far IMO the best is (1) The BYU prof who says he has proof that thermite was used in the twin towers job; (2) The resistance to doing the standard debris/autopsy report on the Pentagon crash. Others?

PtP
----- Original Message -----
From: smacko
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

wow, a smarty comes forward, and decides to head toward the core?!?!?!

I'm impressed, and invigorated! albeit, just woke-up ... and still a bit a cognitive mess! Q;o) let me ponder this unexpected gift, this sunshine of hope breaking through ropes, dopes & cognitive dissonant critters which constantly try to neuter the nest.

some thingks do already come to mind, which I submit at this time to your sublime benign mind to entertain, if you would be so kind?:

>>>
After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?
<<<<<

why should anyone die, when the enemy is within ourselves?

Accountability/Justice is Key Core King Meme all other meme's of 'Authority' adore, by default ... {which the entropy/corruption abhor to a fault}

Obstruction Of Justice/Accountability ... currently a tragectly under used meme
and the appaling/negligent trajection of that absence continues to carve out the justice we otherwise seek, ... such is a self-inflicted cancer upon that which otherwise claims to be opposite the Obstruction of Justice (an identity crises to say the least! cognitive dissonance cripples ... defeat!

If WE are not going to demand/function Accountability within ourselves, within our minds, within the yahoo groups we come to function toward the Accountability we supposedly seek ... well then ladies & gents, we are the lie lying to itself ... if such is the state of affairs we will continue to wreak, then we are the enemy cancer eating ourselves & eachother toward our defeat ... and if such is the condition continued to be allowed to continue to condition us to retreat from said Accountability (we supposedly seek) via plausible deniability clouds of diplomatic immunity we learned from our masters, ... if so be the case ... then let us at least remember to stand proud at our final breath of freedom, in the sublime doublespeak in which we neutered ourselves, let us radiate our disgrace to the devil itself, the lie within, our dark shadow twin, that without our daily complicity, the master slave racket routine would not have paid the dividends so dark & foul, nor would our zombie-borg status rule earth having vanguished the individual responsbility sovereign sourge ... had we borg not functioned accountability meme against itself hypocritically to supress all those individuals that saw through our doublespeak distractions, and moved to wield the Sword of Accountability against the entropy cancer we used hypocritically to subdue humanity ... if it was not for us borg lying deep within ... the enemy within ... humanity would never have fallen

ok ... better stop there ... for now ... thanks, that was invigorating, and hope that such sufficed as payment enough, dear Piper, for the gift you brang?

(please excuse spelling&grammer snafus

Q;o)
luv&bugs

----- Original Message -----
From: Pay_the_Piper
To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

What about the focus within this focus? Is there a single smoking-gun piece
of evidence which should be focused on to clear this matter up?

For example, what about the debris/autopsy for Flight 77 which allegedly hit
the Pentagon? When will the public see it?

Maybe YAFI which has shown us other commercial airline debris/autopsy
reports can answer.

After all, why should Canadians be dying in Afghanistan if the enemy is
south of the 49th?

PtP

----- Original Message -----
From: "ruxpert" <ruxpert@yahoo.com>
To: <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 4:34 PM
Subject: [911TruthAction] moderator 911 focus?

> This group has been created to provide a discussion forum for people
> dedicated to disseminating the truth of the U.S. Government's
> complicity in the atrocities of September, 11th, 2001.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/911TruthAction/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yahoo! Groups Links

Back to top
Reply to sender Reply to group Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)

10.: Re: The missing wings at the pentagon
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject= rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:13 pm (PST)
Sorry for offending if I indulge too much, and I admit to indulging
most willingly and forthrightly. I'm not perfect even as its a goal I
strive for, but know I can't attain. I speak to the writers of the
Longspaugh paper, or article, or whatever it is.

Pursuing the fantasy of no-757 at the Pentagon is playing into the
hands of those that committed the crime.

To fantasize about no-757 is to fantasize that hundreds of witnesses
are all making up stories and lying. The no-757 claim cannot exist
as a theory if it doesn't explain each and every last eyewitness
report.

Among many other things, the no-757 fantasy must also explain why
nobody has reported suspicious planting of evidence, such as heavy
engine parts, landing gear, thousands upon thousands of fuselage and
skin pieces raining down and covering the area around the building,
and appearing all over the place.

The no-757 fantasy must explain how so many hundreds if not
thousands of people could be involved in a cover up on just the
pentagon event without a word leaking out from a frustrated
participant, or turncoat. I guess those Pentagon people are beyond
perfect and beyond human behaviour that's ruled human society since
civilized humans were around.

It must also explain why the damage to the building both inside and
outside looks exactly like a 757 hit the building, as much
photographic evidence shows.

Just a brief look at the extent of the damage on one of the 900 foot
long sides of the Pentagon indicates, with all the blackened marks
from fuel burning and defaced and destroyed Pentagon wall, along with
massive interior damage, reveals a large plane hit the Pentagon, not
a mosquito.

The fantasy claim must also explain why the hundreds of people in the
area gave direct eyewitness reports of a 757 hitting the Pentagon,
while all seeming to miss out on the fact that the 757 didn't
actually hit, but flew invisibly over the Pentagon in a near miss and
landed at the nearby Reagan Airport, where noone else there saw it
land or take off or do anything either. A camera didn't even catch
it, though that won't stop anyone from making a claim that cameras
caught a missile hitting the Pentagon so the almighty bad government
won't show us that one.

So we're to reject hundreds of eyewitness claims in favour of some
mislead researcher who lives in some other state who never was there
but who thinks he knows exactly how a plane crash into the Pentagon
should look because he's a scientific expert and something does't
make sense about the crash because the wings are so big and the
building is so small and he's neglected to consider some important
evidence like eyewitness testimony, proven to be very dependable when
large groups say the same thing, consistently. Two hundred people
saying he ran him over, I saw the fast moving car, the driver, the
approach, the hit, the crush, the blood and guts, and the crash of
the car into the pole afterwards, means that a guy got run over by a
car and died. We don't need a doctorate telling us how the car paint
wasn't damaged enough so the guy couldn't have died from the impact,
It must have been something else, you all saw things. Don't listen
to your senses, they are wrong, my speculation inspired calculations
prove it here.

The Pentagon is a huge massive building and the plane hit the
strongest, just recently reinforced part. One side of the Pentagon is
just over 900 feet long. It's around 80 feet hight. A 757 airliner
is a long, skinny, fragile tube connected to a structurally strong
wing truss that is exceedingly poorly designed to withstand crashing
at 350 mph into a 2 foot thick concrete and rock wall that's
reinforced with tons and tons of high strength steel. The Pentagon
was not made out of Balsa wood, even as it's outer wall at the first
floor level gave in along a lenght of over 95 feet and the whole side
eventually caved in. Wouldn't that be expected of an intense 757
crash into a building as big and strongly built as the Pentagon?

The wings of the 757 hit almost directly into the floor slab level of
the 2nd floor, but slightly lower than the centerline of the slab, as
photos clearly show. The slab is a foot thick, reinforced with tonnes
upon tonnes of steel, inluding beams, and extends into the building
by a long ways. The wings will undergo immense destruction as they
plow into this incredibly immoveable and strong slab. The wings will
be directed downwards, into the space below the slab, which is the
first floor area, where dozens of concrete steel reinforced bomb
proof colums await them. The wings will shatter into mostly
unrecognizeable small pieces.

Those that favour the no-757 theory appear to love speculation,
directing their investigations and conclusions on fanciful,
unrealistic speculation, irregardless of what the bulk of the
evidence is clearly saying. They have a propensity for ignoring
evidence that doesn't suit their speculations, which is a recipe for
living in belief driven fantasy and eternal nonsense.

Speculation can be used to direct investigation, but it needs to be
used wisely. Investigators must still use the known to pry
information from the unknown, not let speculation drive imaginative
theories supported by pumped up psuedo-science.

Specifically, if over 200 average human beings who have nothing
apparent to hide, who are just like you or me or any other person,
all say consistently, within the shocking state of affairs going on,
that a 757 flew towards and then crashed into the Pentagon, then that
can be used as a KNOWN. It is a known. For it to not be a known, then
a fantasy needs to be invented where 200 people are deceived all at
once by their own eyes, while some person with a lame
brained "scientific" analysis is considered to be much more
dependable because.....gee, I don't know. Just because. Because,
because, because. Because it fits someone's speculative conclusions
really well. Yeah.... there was no plane at the Pentagon, now that I
think about it.... There wasn't one because some government bad guys
are the ones who really pulled off 911 and we need some evidence so
lets make it that a missile hit the Pentagon instead of a plane.
Yeah, the military is all corrupt, every one of the tens of thousands
that work there in the Pentagon and around the Pentagon. They'll
never speak up all those military types. They're clicky, sticking to
their stories like.... hmm.... people from the eastern end of the
Mediterranean, and worse! Oh, and plus, which proves me even more
right, the media are all saying it was a plane, and we know the media
is all corrupt and only says what Bush tells them to say. The media
isn't made up of average people like you and me. They are part of the
conspiracy. Wow, there sure are a lot of people in this coverup. It
almost seems like I'm the only guy in Washing D.C. and the whole
country that didn't know about it beforehand. Those tricky guys. I
sure have my work cut out for me, convincing all those conspirators
to quit acting like conspirators and start making peace in the world.
Stop voting for Bush all you bad people. Vote for my guy instead. If
a couple of you'd only have voted for my guy last electoin, we'd not
be in this mess you put me in.

Cherished beliefs like the no-757 fantasy are tough for a believer to
relinquish, but it is very necessary for truthful discovery and
correct resolution of crimes.

The writers of the article I am writing this email in reply to are
living in speculation and belief driven investigation and conclusion
making.

They start off mentioning there's a lack of expected debris. Well,
lets see their evidence for that before they go dancing off with
fancy fairy tales using five dollar scientific words to impress the
masses of believers. Dozens of pictures, for those willing to look
closely, show tons of debris, of many sizes, but mostly smaller
sizes, due to the obvious extremely destructive nature of the
collision of a fragile high speed plane meeting an immobile, highly
reinforced, concrete and rock structure.

They then immediately make claims about a hole not being big enough.
Clear photo evidence shows a Pentagon wall punched out for at least
95 feet along the first floor, and a huge 17 foot diameter hole
extendng a fair bit into the floor above, plus massive damage to a
floor slab in between the two, plus much wall damage around the area.
Is that not enough of a hole? What would be enough? The whole
Pentagon collapsing? The Pentagon isn't a flimsy stack of cards. Why
don't these speculators first try flying a plane into a concrete wall
at around 350 miles per hour head-on to help themselves get an idea
of what happens to a plane when it does that, before they make their
intellectual scientific claims that no plane hit? But heck, they can
skip that, since the data already exists (F4 Phanton test) that shows
how a high speed plane tends to disintegrate when hitting an
immoveable object. But, oops, maybe that would interfere with their
speculation driven conclusions and prevent them from misleading
people using psuedo science and gaining fame and glory, or whatever
it is their lookin' for. Maybe those pictures are not what we really
see. Of course it doesn't look like what we "expected". We don't see
those things happen everyday. What did they expect to see. No damage?
The plane fly right through the building and emerge out the other
side, unharmed, like Wiley Coyote when he falls of a cliff and hits
the ground? A dent in the nose, and a broken window? The entire
Pentagon go up in a cloud of smoke, and the super strong titanium
tube of an airplane circle around for a run at the White House?

They ignore evidence, then because they've ignored it, they claim
there is a problem, which only their profound insight and
intellectual ability is powerful enough to solve using speculation
and assumptions, that somehow hold more water than actual eyewitness
testimony that's based on the use of dependable senses like sight,
hearing, touch, and feeling. Oh, but that is not real. Calculations
and endless speculations are real. Trust them. They know what they
are not doing.

These fellows have all hopped on the bandwagon of false promises and
wishful speculation that started out early after 911.

It's enough that the plane suspiciously hit the reinforced section of
the Pentagon. Or that it was claimed to be flown by a frail guy with
poor English skills who really couldn't fly. Or that the plane
displayed all the hallmarks of a remote controlled flight. Or that
the missiles all around the area didn't shoot the plane down while it
circled around the area after everyone knew it was hijacked half an
hour earlier and was headed for the Pentagon/Capital area. Or that no
pilots reported a hijacking. Or that no Middle Eastern men were
documented on the flights, other than by unsupported government
official (meaning lie) claims. Or that war games simulating the very
thing that occurred, just happened to be running when the Pentagon
event occurred. And more.

All of this is fairly well known and accepted. But it's not enough
for some, especially the gang who want to keep the above points
unexplored, and those that have their hearts set on it. What is
really needed is to imagine that a missile or no-757 hit the Pentagon
in order to explain it all. That would make things so much easier for
us to solve, because its so condeming and obvious, and it'd make the
conspirators job so much more difficult to pull off the event. Yeah,
instead of simply flying a remotely hijacked 757 into the Pentagon,
go with missiles or invisible, unnoticed, slinky planes slipping by
all the blinded-by-the-light witnesses who somehow still managed to
see an airliner slip by (but only up to the point where it sneakily
slipped over the building and flapped away silently). Oh those
hissing, slippery, snake-like planes. Just when you think you see
one, you don't. Call in the physics and psychic expert to explain how
it all works to us. We can't trust our eyes and senses. It's got to
be written on paper and stamped scientific before I'll believe it.

Belief, belief, belief.

A lie could go halfway around the world before the truth even had a
chance to put its boots on -- Mark Twain.

One of the primary means of immobilizing the American people today is
to hold them in a state of confusion in which anything can be
believed and nothing can be known....nothing of significance, that
is. -- E. Martin Schotz.

Yeah, using the old noggin, poor memory, and preferential
intellectualized biases to foster beliefs instead of the larger human
senses to indulge in knowingness. Speculation, speculation,
speculation. All is equal. Every opinion or idea is as worthy as the
next, standing above eye witness, as long as its based on speculation
and ignores the self evident facts.

Robert

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11.: Re: I am thrown off another large list
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject= rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:34 pm (PST)
Well, Dick,

Maybe being a neo-nazi ain't such a bad thing. A con is a bad thing
to be, and that's why I'm guessin the Bush gang decided to turn over
their leaf and re-named themselves as the new-cons, or the neo-cons.
They are now compared to the nazis, those poor fellows, right back
where they started, even as things were going so good for them for a
bit. So an neo-con is nazi, now. A neo-nazi is only a new nazi,
something different and shinier, newer, and improved over the old nazi.
So you're a shining star now. It took many years before both nazi's and
neocons were considered passe and not so nice and not so liked by half
the crowd, so I figure you got a nice stretch ahead of you of being
admired for your newly knighted qualities before anyone catches on.

Robert, takin' it lightly

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12a.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject= rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:38 pm (PST)
The answer to that question hangs on what the inquirer has smoked
himself in the past.

Robert

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12b.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject= rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:30 pm (PST)
Yeah,

most emails get through to the group, I think, but I know I don't
recieve most, for some reason. There are a lot of filters with the
various service providers and hosts, etc that may be over
acclompishing their jobs.

It's nice to hear someone speak personally nice of Dylan, and I'm
sure he's putting in his best effort which clearly is mountains
beyond an average person's input.

I have faith in your words for I have no reason to expect other.

Ten million people believing a lie doesn't make the lie any more true
or any less damaging. Any lie's damage is at least directly
proportional to the extent to which it is believed, and probably much
more so, in truth.

If it is him that appears on his intro in the video, which I gather
it was, he appeals as a regular well motivated guy, and very
likeable, admireable, and commendable.

Questioning a person's accomplishments or criticizing their mistakes
or comparing the equivalency of their actions to others who may be
differently motivated is not slandering a person, even as strong
words may be used. Strong negative actions and effects often require
strong responses to inspire correction.

Whether Dylan purposefully, accidently, unknowingly, unintentionally,
mistakenly, or unwillingly spread information or conclusions that are
false does not change the fact that false information was spread. It
also doesn't mean he has to stop trying to spread the truth. It only
means corrections are required, as is always the case in the pursuit,
discovery, and implementation of truth, which is what the 911
movement carries itself as.

911 requires the shaking up of individuals to get more people into
action, but it must be remembered that the one of the most powerful
methods being used to keep the people in inaction is the spreading of
false information, disinformation, misinformation, confusion,
uncertainty, untruths, lies, and false stories by less admireable
persons. How does a person tell apart a liars tales from a earnest
person's falsehoods? How does a person distinguish between the
effects?

I don't need to know Dylan before I can determin whether he is wrong
about an idea he pursues or not. I'm positive, with your assurance,
that he's a great fellow, a fantastic person with a beautiful heart.

That's the shame of the world we live in, where truly hurtful people
like those perpetrators of 911 who, for their own greedy benefit,
take advantage of the regular and normal behaviour of humans, such as
our tendency to make mistakes, while knowing that for all us it is
impossible not to make mistakes. The 911 people made mistakes along
the line at various points, and if we want to catch them and expose
them, we have to make fewer mistakes ourselves because they hold an
advantage over us already.

I am impressed by the great things Dylan has done, and I can only
have hope that he minimizes his future mistakes, and removes himself
from the glaring ones, especially since he is having such success in
promoting his ideas.

I sign all my posts, my name is Robert Rust, and I am as open as
emailing permits. I have nothing to hide, like most others.
RRiverRRapid is merely a play on my initials that is consistent with
my appreciation for active outdoor sports, and its given because
Yahoo required a name, for those concerned.

Robert

--- In 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Hammond
<sir_oglaigh@...> wrote:
>
> I too have had posts not go through. And in regards to Loose
Change all I have further to say is that the proof is in the pudding
and we will ALL be judged by our fruits.
>
> Dick Eastman <olfriend@...> wrote: anonymous rriverrapid
is false opposition
>
> and my answers to him are not being posted
>
> this is a test
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sithgmail
> To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 1:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [911TruthAction] Loose Change Nonsense
>
>
> I know Dylan personally and he is anything but a
disinfo artist. He made the original 2 Loose Change films on what
information was available at the time and is in the process of
finishing the 3rd edition which cleans up the errors in the first two.
>
> He is one of the most active 9/11 truth speakers there is. He is
constantly out there on the streets, meeting people, showing the
film, financing screenings in theaters and drumming up viewers to
come watch it for free. He does more than most people do!
>
> Any errors in Loose Change or LC 2nd Edition were honest
mistakes. Some of the sources he used that were thought to be highly
credible turned out not to be.. it happens.
>
> However... Loose Change 2nd edition is consistently in google
video's top 100 views and has been downloaded by more than 2 million
people, add that to the amount of free dvd's we all give away and it
has reached a lot of people!
>
> Yes, there are some problems with it, but they are being fixed.
It still serves as an excellent introduction into the world of 9/11
truth and causes many people to start researching 9/11 on their own.
>
> If something grabs people's attention and makes them stop for a
moment and say "hmm... maybe there is more to this than meets the
eye...." thats a good thing!
>
> And before you say it, no, I am definitely not advocating netting
people into the 9/11 truth world with lies and fabrications.
>
> Dylan's motives for creating LC is definitely spot on. He is the
farthest thing you can get from a "disinfo operative".
>
> Get to know someone before labelling them and slandering them
through email lists. He is a fantastic person and his heart is most
truly in the right place.
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: rriverrapid
> Date: 06/20/06 03:18:31
> To: 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [911TruthAction] Loose Change Nonsense
>
>
> The video Loose Change is so full of nonsense mixed with truth
that
> the person who made the video couldn't have done a better job at
> creating and spreading misinformation and confusion had they been
the
> actual perpetrators following through with their cover up program.
>
> Truthful discovery requires the revelation of the truth, the whole
> truth, and nothing but the truth. Loose Change is a VERY
deceptively
> produced video. It's a video designed to entrap the gullible and
> careless researchers and common people into making fabulous claims,
> thus making the whole 911 discovery movement appear as a bunch of
> misdirected space cases, endlessly pursuing embarassingly false
> claims such as no planes hitting the Pentagon and more. There is a
> lot of truthful information in the video, but its the volumes of
> inaccurate and misleading claims that make the video worse than an
> actual frontal assault on legitimate 911 researchers.
>
> It's a shame how easily mislead indviduals and masses in our
culture
> have become.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.1/369 - Release Date:
6/19/2006
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.1/369 - Release Date:
6/19/2006
>
>
>
> Saoirse go deo! www.fightthenwo.org
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus
there's much more to come.
>

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Messages in this topic (26)
12c.: Re: Loose Change Nonsense
Posted by: "rriverrapid" mailto:rustrobert@hotmail.com?Subject= rriverrapid
Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:07 pm (PST)
Dick,

You need to convince yourself of the truth of the 757 hitting the
Pentagon. However you do it is up to you. I surely am pedantic in
some ways, there is no doubt.

I make claims, but its only an intro. Before a person begins
attempting to ascertains the facts for real, they need to get
consistently good at ascertaining the real facts of life, using
reliable methods.

I make a claim, its for the interested other to investigate it and
find its worth. If you are not interested in doing that, or not
able, it is not my responsibility or worry, even as I may state my
concerns. You are always free to take or leave what I say. There are
boat loads of informative sites out there, some much better than
others, but none with the whole truth, that allow an inquisitive
person to gather the truth that a 757 hit the Pentagon.

I once took what you said regarding the Pentagon crash whole
heartedly and completely when I first investigated 911. I accepted
what you said as plausibly true and even true, and I promoted it to
others, even as I needed to self examine more and get cross
examination from others who were more careful and qualified
investigators then me,and even you.

Much of what you said was true, and I discovered that it was just
mixed up a bit and not the whole truth, and it was weak in some areas
that were claimed to be strong but turned out to be just based on
speculation, not fact. I cannot honestly make conclusions based on
speculation, other than concluding I'm not sure about what I'm
speculating about.

Regarding the released video frames from the Pentagon. In
understanding them, one needs to understand how digital video records
moving objects, particularly high speed objects. To make a long story
short, digital video uses various methods of image capture which
leads to the great distortion of fast moving objects, particularly if
they occupy only a small portion of the screen and if they are
distant. It has to do with how pixels are recorded and how pixel
lines are alternated on screens. Computer screens will doubly distort
the video image that is brought to the computer, resulting in quite
some strange images of objects that otherwise are easily
recognizeable when viewed in the real with eyes. I had a good site to
refer you to here, but I lost it and I'll try finding it again for
you. What can happen, and usually does, is that a white image like a
fast flying plane against a dark background, or any background, can
be made to look like a wavy, spread out, odd shaped figure, shaded
and spotty, not much like it really looks like. A plane flying into
the towers, for example, on some video will appear as if part of it
is missing, or that it is smaller or changing shape magically. It's
all because of video imaging distortion and screen display
distortion. I forget all the fancy words.

Using this knowledge, one realizes that conclusions made about a
suspect video frame that is of a high speed plane in the distance are
not wise to make, and can't be made without error. An extremely high
quality camera is needed that can record extremely accurate images at
high speed, but these are much more expensive cameras then what are
found at a toll gates at the Pentagon. Those are cameras that only
take two to four pictures per second, as most security cameras do.

Sorry for the length. I'll try to be brief.

There are many analyses that show how an accurately scaled model of
the 757 made all the damage we see at the Pentagon, including the
engines. What is not known, and cannot be exactly known, is how the
exact destruction of the 757 proceeded. An logical look at the crash
that considers the impact angel, the speed of the crash, the effect
of the nose of the plane hitting first, then the right wing, combined
with consideration of rotational movements of the planes body and
tail end, allows one to see how the plane impacted against the
building and mostly entered the building, except for parts of the
tail. Any part of the plane that impacted the reinforced concrete
fairly squarely, like the tail section, didn't remain in very large
pieces. An article at the scholars for truth site explains this
fairly nicely, though other sites add good points too. In determining
where the nose hit, are you able to say exactly where it hit, within
5 feet, at what height exactly, how much of plane went in on the
first floor, how much on the second, how much debris blew over the
roof or onto it, or how the shredded and destroyed material exactly
distributed itslef all over the place.

Some questions just need to be left alone and unanswered and they are
unnecessary to answer. Speculation on them only leads to specious
claims that often can mislead a person into making dangerous
conclusions in an already controversial or uncertain subject. I'd
rather remain in unknowing than turn a speculation into a unwarranted
conclusion.

A small number who saw the 757 crash into the wall is enough, since
they are surrounded by those that saw just instants before and all
the while after. A small number of witnesses doesn't make them any
less right then five thousand. An extremely imporant fact is that
NOONE saw a plane fly over the pentagon, just missing it. The mistake
of the negative proof fallacy is made if one concludes that a plane
must have flown over the pentagon because no one saw it, and that
only a few saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Nobody saw a plane fly over
the roof, so I could conclude that one didn't, but I don't know for
sure. But combine that with the fact that everyone who was looking,
and a lot were looking, never mentioned anything about a plane barely
missing, not even the ones who saw the plane hit the Pentagon. All is
in favour of those that saw it hit, and there is no evidence to
conclude they lied, were mistaken, are coverup people, etc. Theirs
not a scrap of solid evidence that says a 757 flew barely over the
Pentaon. Not even a light scrap. Just ungrounded speculation.

The flight path of the plane is not entirely established or certain,
since flight data has not been released. What is available is
evidence on the ground and eyewitness reports that describe the
planes position fairly accurately. Eyewitness reports have been
found to be very reliable in courts, and that is why they are
favoured evidence by prosecutors and weigh heavily. There are
websites that explain very well the position of the light poles after
they fell, which I posted in one of my last posts. There is no
mystery about the poles. And one pole is only one pole. They are all
very in line with the flight path described by witnesses and
supported by other evidence, such as the marks made on the trailers
and fences and the destruction angles in the builing, etc.

Prove that the debris with the letter N on it is planted. Many
photos of plane crashes are available that show plane debris that is
unscorched or unscratched (though broken into pieces) where planes
crashed and burned or hit objects, etc. Prove that someone didn't
put the piece there during cleanup, since the photo is taken at some
undetermined time after the event. You don't know, I don't know, no
one knows exactly, so it can't be used as conclusive evidence for
planting. It's an unknown, left for speculation, and speculation is
only where we were originally. The only real known about it is that
it is a piece of twisted, ripped up fusealage that comes from an AA
757, as its' been photographically matched to the very same part, and
its there in the picture. That's consistent with an AA 757 hitting
the Pentagon, and disintegrating in high fashion, as can be expected.
If you say it is planted, show me how you know and how you proved it,
other than by you claiming it is so.

All this current evidence you have regiven me I have investigated
over and over again on websites and books in the past. I related a
few of the details above. You research into too for your own benefit
and come to the same conclusion as me, using self evidence as a basis
for making conclusions.

In conclusion, I can only arrive at the claim that no 757 hit the
Pentagon if I string a trail of speculative ideas together, and
ignore many logical, self evident facts that contradict the
speculation, and which themselves (facts) can be used to build a
conclusion using those facts. I have no choice but to follow the
facts and let speculation be speculation, as much as I dislike
remaining in the unknown, but as much as I love not believing in
things.

I do not claim to be a man of wisdom, though I definitely strive to
be wise by learning from my successes and mistakes from the past and
as they continue to come along. I am not afraid of making a mistake,
and I welcome correcting myself when I make one, just as I welcome
successes.

I never heard that word prolixity, but I'll look it up. It's a nice
word, I'll pick it up for my vocabulary. Thanks for the good use of
words, while not overdoing it, like I might from time to time, more
often than not.

I'm unsure of what you meant to say in your last sentence, since you
evidently misspelled a word or missed putting in a word.

Robert

Prolixity; unduly long and verbose. That's me to a T, quite often,
without question, including in the latest, despite my hopes.

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13.: Apparently the WHOLE US gubberment is a TERRORIST CELL
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject=Re: drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:39 pm (PST)

----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Kidder
Sent: June 22, 2006
Subject: Re: Apparently the WHOLE US gubberment is a TERRORIST CELL

.GREAT info!

Derek

On 6/22/06, applespike <applespike@hotmail.com> wrote:
summary of 10 recent thermite/thermate posts 17.Jun.2006 15:59 foward me to someone link http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml

[COMMENTARY: in time order of article theme on thermite at WTCs, videos, discussion, pictures; [1] since thermite/thermate can be made of basic industrical chemicals, it can be made "tracerless"--i.e., avoid all signature tracer chemicals that the U.S. Govt requires be mixed in very small amounts in all highly powerful and highly monitored explosives to keep track of every batch's origin.
[2] Moreover if he has found it in WTC7, as he says, then with Silverstein admitting that he conducted a controlled demolition on 9-11 of WTC7 around
5:30 p.m., then Silverstein is admitting that WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 all are thermate controlled demolitions.
[3] And who was in charge of WTC security? Why, Marvin Bush, brother of George W. Bush, on the board of Securatech.
[4] And written up in their mom's (ghostwritten) autobiography, Barbara Bush drops the other bombshell that it's just a coincidence that Marvin's contract at the WTCs was up on September 11, 2001 anyway. She wrote about it in the book!
[5] The Bush family through Marvin Bush have been in charge of security of the WTCs since immediately after the first failed terrorist attempt to knock down the WTCs one month into Clinton's Presidential tenure in 1993.
[6] The FBI is on record giving the order to conduct terrorism on the WTC in
1993, via their hired gun Salam, who didn't want to carry out the attack 'for real' since he was told by the FBI that he was hired simply for a sting operation to arrest some perpetrators in a terror cell he infiltrated for the FBI. [two minute video summary on this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6752092058844526234 [7] When the FBI instead told him to both suggest the WTC as a target for the 1993 attack, as well as teach them how to make bombs, as well as FBI allowing him to provide live explosives--their agent started taping everything covertly that he was ordered to do in reference to FBI ordering him to carry out the 1993 terrorist attack on the WTCs.
[8] Immediately after the failed attack on the WTCs, the Bush family, through a corporate shell vehicle owned in part by the royal family of Kuwait, the Kuwaiti/American Corporation, was put in charge of security at the WTCs, with Marvin Bush on board.
[9] Seven weeks before the controlled demolitions of 9-11, the towers change hands in their first (rushed) sale, being all bought up by Silverstein, who introduces a huge terrorism insurance appendage.
[10] Despite admitting publicly that HE gave the order (in the PBS special "America Rebuilds") to blow up his own WTC7 on 9-11, the whole thing is so corrupt that he still collects 500 million dollars on the "terrorist destruction alibi" of WTC7, and has already collected several billion dollars on the 'terrorism clause' in the WTC1/2 insurance.
[11] and We already know that the anthrax that was sent to congress and which killed several postal workers in the process (sent to Senator Daschle and to Senator Leahy), was weaponized under a covert CIA only contract, and it was a domestic Ames strain of anthrax coming from one of three or four of the U.S. bioweapons labs.
[12] The "Patriot Act" was already written up before 9-11, just required a whiff of domestic anthrax to force passage with a bit more bio-
terrorism on the Congress itself by domestic terrorists; [13] Bush and his whole Cabinet of course were out of danger: they were taking an anthrax exclusive drug to counter it, from September 11 onward, so when the anthrax hit in early October in DC, Bush's staff would be immune to the domestic-in-origin anthrax terrorism. The interesting point of course is Bush's whole team all psyched up and anticipating an anthrax attack one month in advance--which just so happens to be the incubation time for the anthax bacilli--I could go on ad nauseum. The whole U.S. government is a terrorist unit, operating under the guise of its counter terrorism squads.]

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14.: A Day in the Life: 6/22/6
Posted by: "President, USA Exile Govt." mailto:prez@usa-exile.org?Subject=Re:
Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:19 pm (PST)
GOVERNMENT OF THE USA IN EXILE
Free Americans
Reaching Out to Amerika's Huddled Masses Yearning to Breathe Free

Via <prez@usa-exile.org>

June 22, 2006

NOTE: I've omitted one of two photos provided with the piece directly
below--but you can access a whole portfolio of them via the links at
bottom. The other one is a keeper: both Mahathir and the unnamed woman
appear quite grateful--even humbled--to receive at last some accurate
9/11 info. I hope you'll circulate this good news as extensively as
possible. -- kl, pp

From: Henri the Celt <henrithecelt@gci.net>
Date: June 21, 2006 2:56:55 PM EST
To: AAAHenri <henrithecelt@gci.net>
Subject: Fw: 911 TRUTH: Our 9/11 Ambassadors take Malaysia by storm

From: Dstacey

9/11 TRUTH: Our 9/11 Ambassadors Take Malaysia by Storm

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

William Rodriguez called this morning upon his return to the US to tell
me about his and Jimmy Walter’s huge successes spreading the word in
Malaysia about the 9/11 cover-up.

I do believe these two gentlemen may have started a firestorm in that
country.

As the photos Willy sent me attest (links below), he and Jimmy Walter
met with many of the top Malaysian cabinet members, and were given a
full 2-hour audience with former president Mahathir Mohammad (rare,
from what I’ve heard from others). Mahathir, as you may know -- still
very much the power behind the throne -- is a mercurial firebrand who
(for better or for worse) has never demonstrated timidity of any shade
during his tumultuous political career, and is every bit as capable as,
say, Hugo Chavez, in running with the ball in a matter as momentous as
9/11. [NB: Walters and Rodriguez met with President Chavez and his
cabinet in Caracas last month to an equally enthusiastic welcome.]

This is going to be very interesting — especially since it involves a
major Islamic country — and could well prove to be the catalyst we’ve
all been waiting for to trigger the great global avalanche of 9/11
Truth.

----------

Philanthropist Jimmy Walter (second from left), William Rodriguez, and
Former Malaysian president, Mahathir Mohammed

I’m told our “ambassadors” gave several press conferences, were on
prime-time TV five days running, and were received rapturously
everywhere they went. Walters’ movie, “Confronting The Evidence” was
also aired during prime-time.

Willy mentioned that the movie triggered such an outcry that, last
Friday, over 200 Islamic clerics marched on the US embassy to demand an
answer to a long list of questions about 9/11. Predictably, the Marines
were called in and the crowd dispersed under severe protest. While this
was aired on Malaysian nightly news and caused a huge hullabaloo, we’ve
obviously yet to hear a murmur of any of it Stateside (or, I presume,
elsewhere in the West).

The following links will take you to the portfolio of photos I received
from Mr. Rodriguez.

Kind regards
Nila

__________________________________________________________

<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
detail?.dir=.7db9&.dnm=311d.jpg&.tok=phRtxDFBjsEgcR.b&amp;.src=m
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ail>

<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
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ail> Rodriguez in KL
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ail>

<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
detail?.dir=.7db9&.dnm=20fa.jpg&.tok=phhtxDFBMWemqRn1&.src=m
ail> Tun Dr M and the master key
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<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
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<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
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ail>

<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
detail?.dir=.7db9&.dnm=7769.jpg&.tok=phltxDFBoSr5m4wg&amp;.src=m
ail> un Chancellor Datuk Fariah and Rodriguez
<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
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ail>

<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
detail?.dir=.7db9&.dnm=8035.jpg&.tok=phltxDFBoSr5pVdq&amp;.src=m
ail> Vice Chancellor to the UN- Datuk Fariah,
<http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/wroudy/
detail?.dir=.7db9&.dnm=8035.jpg&.tok=phltxDFBoSr5pVdq&amp;.src=m
ail>

========================================================================
=================================================================

From: Richard Pierce <phobicflyonthewall@yahoo.com>
Date: June 21, 2006 7:51:11 PM EST
To: 911TruthAction <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [911TruthAction] Big Surprises at Bilderberg

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/210606Bilderberg.htm

Big
Surprises at Bilderberg

James P. Tucker Jr / American Free Press June 21 2006

Bilderberg expects interest rates to rise and many Americans to lose
their homes in the months ahead. Meanwhile, they hope they can pressure
President Bush to refrain from an all-out invasion of Iran while
maintaining oil prices at their current record-high levels of about $70
a barrel.

Timothy Geithner, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York,
predicted rising interest rates and difficulties for families that have
obtained adjustable rate mortgages, or “variable” interest rates. Many
are likely to lose their homes as rising home mortgage rates add
hundreds of dollars to their monthly payments, he said. While most
listened solemnly and some expressed concern, one was heard to say,
“stupid Americans deserve their fate.”

Many Americans, especially young families, have been buying expensive
homes at low but “variable” interest rates. Others have been paying
just the interest owed on their homes and not the principal. They are
the most vulnerable, Geithner said. Some have paid little or nothing
down. Some institutions “lend” buyers the down payment.

When home construction peaks and prices start downward, many will find
they owe more on their home than it is worth in the marketplace. They
will also find their mortgage—even “interest-only” payments—are
unaffordable. The banks will get the homes back and sell them again.

Again, the term “stupid Americans” was heard among clucks of sympathy
or silent indifference. According to one source, no concern was
expressed by Allan Hubbard, assistant to President Bush for economic
policy.

European Bilderbergers said they would have no part in an invasion of
Iran, something Bush says is an “option on the table.” Although NATO is
helping by adding 9,000 troops in Afghanistan, expect no help if Iran
is invaded, they said. “We will not help you fight a war for Israel,”
one said.

Several noted that Israel has had nuclear weapons since at least 1963
and has never signed on to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, so no
international inspections are conducted. It was the late George Ball, a
charter member of Bilderberg who was No. 2 man in the State Department
under presidents John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson, who first revealed
that Israel has nuclear weapons.

“Is it not reasonable that Iran would need such a deterrence against
Israel?” an unidentified Bilderberger was heard saying. “If you invade
Iran, Israel is your only ally and good luck.” One suggested that
“surgical strikes”—but no land invasion—may be tolerated but others
said they would be ineffective.

Listeners to this dialogue included Eival Gildy of Israel, head of
“coordination and strategy in the office of the prime minister,” and
Ziad Abu Amr, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, president
of the Palestinian Council on Foreign Relations and professor of
political science at Birzeit University. Ahmad Chalabi, former deputy
prime minister of Iraq and one of the key sources of disinformation
about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, was also present.

William Luti, special assistant to Bush for defense policy, and
Richard Perle, former high Defense Department official and still a
close adviser to Bush, responded that the United States is simply
trying to stop the spread of nuclear weapons and make the world “safe.”
But, said one European: “How ‘safe’ do you think the world will be if
you invade Iran and Iran responds by firing missiles on your ally,
Israel? Israel will nuke Iran in response and you will have your
‘proliferation.’”

Robert Zoellick, deputy secretary of state, said it would be necessary
to keep the invasion “option” to pressure Iran into agreeing to abandon
its nuclear weapons program.

“You’re wrong,” the European answered. “Iran simply refuses to be
bullied by the United States. Save us a lot of trouble and forget about
invading Iran.” The Americans remained silent.

Bilderberg’s mood was described as “uneasy” when it came to the issue
of oil, a discussion followed closely by such oil-rich participants as
banker David Rockefeller, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands and Franco
Bernabe, vice chairman of Rothschild Europe.
The “Latin American problem” mixed the issue of oil with Bilderberg’s
scheme to expand NAFTA throughout the Western Hemisphere and have it
evolve into an “American Union” patterned after the European Union.
Hugo Chavez, head of Venezuela, is not only raising taxes on the
extraction of oil from his country, he is trying to establish a trade
coalition with neighboring nations that would block the expansion of
NAFTA by creating the Free Trade Area of the Americas.

Bilderberg’s consensus seemed to be to not force higher oil prices at
the moment, but be content with the immense profits enjoyed now.

Chavez’s barrier to NAFTA expansion leaves them moody because
establishing an “American Union” is a critical step toward Bilderberg’s
goal of establishing the United Nations as a world government.

========================================================================
=================================================================___
From: Henri the Celt <henrithecelt@gci.net>
Date: June 20, 2006 2:00:36 PM EST
To: AAAHenri <henrithecelt@gci.net>
Subject: Fw: Russo Interview Link Fixed BRILLIANT-- FOUNDATIONAL INFO

Russo Interview Link Fixed BRILLIANT--
FOUNDATIONAL INFO

This is an absolutely brilliant interview with filmmaker Aaron Russo,
on the subject of the Federal Reserve, the control of money hence the
control of governments and the serfdom of the people by the bankers,
foremost amongst them, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the
Oppenheimers, etc. This is an extremely succinct interview, put in
terms that the layman can easily understand.

The Federal Reseerve and the usuary it employs, is what the ring in
Tolkien's Lord of the Rings symbolizes. As Russo says, it is the head
of the beast that must be cut off if we are to be free on any issue at
all.

His movie "From Freedom to Facism" will be in select movie houses
around the country. Check out his website to find a location near
you. http://www.freedomtofascism.com

Watch this interview to the very end, then click on the trailor of his
movie. You won't be sorry.

Deirdre Fields From: Deirdre Fields
"The scariest film you'll see this year. It will leave you staggering
out of the theatre, slack-jawed and trembling. Makes 'Fahrenheit 9/11'
look like 'Bambi.'"
--- Todd David Schwartz, CBS

Dear Lovers of Liberty,
Here is the link: to the interview that Aaron Russo did before he left
for Cannes:

The interview is also posted on the front page of
www.freedomtofascism.com.
We think that if everyone in America saw this interview, the country
could change overnight. The feedback about this interview has been
amazing.
Help us get this interview seen by as many people as possible so that
we can get to the top of the Google Video charts.

Aaron is still in Germany but doing really well. He's going in for
another procedure tomorrow . The tumor is shrinking and the outlook is
rosy. He is grateful for the outpouring of support from so many people.
We'll be sending an email later this afternoon with a special
announcement about the theatrical release.
-The A:FTF Team

Opening July 28th in select cities.
www.freedomtofascism.com

========================================================================
================================================================

From: "t r u t h o u t" <messenger@truthout.org>
Date: June 21, 2006 8:34:35 AM EST
To: prez@usa-exile.org
Subject: FOCUS House Derails Bush Immigration Overhaul

[SNIP]

VIDEO Katrina Plus Ten Months - Professor Bill Quigley Speaks
A Film by Chris Hume and L. Wild Horse
http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

Over 7,200 family dwellings sit empty throughout New Orleans. No, not
FEMA trailers. These are solid brick public housing projects that
survived Katrina. They only require interior repairs, and thousands of
displaced low income families want to move back in. But instead, they
are being fenced off and condemned. Why? Chris Hume and L. Wild Horse
speak with Professor Bill Quigley and several former tenants.

========================================================================
=================================================================

Study: Earth Hottest in
400 Years
Panel says humans
responsible for much of the warming

Thursday, June 22, 2006 Posted: 1510 GMT (2310 HKT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Earth is the hottest it has been in at least 400
years, probably even longer.

The National Academy of Sciences, reaching that conclusion in a broad
review of scientific work requested by Congress, reported Thursday that
the "recent warmth is unprecedented for at least the last 400 years and
potentially the last several millennia."

A panel of top climate scientists told lawmakers that the Earth is
running a fever and that "human activities are responsible for much of
the recent warming." Their 155-page report said average global surface
temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere rose about 1 degree during the
20th century.

The report was requested in November by the chairman of the House
Science Committee, Rep. Sherwood Boehlert, R-New York, to address
naysayers who question whether global warming is a major threat.

Last year, when the House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman, Rep.
Joe Barton, R-Texas, launched an investigation of three climate
scientists, Boehlert said Barton should try to learn from scientists,
not intimidate them.

The Bush administration also has maintained that the threat is not
severe enough to warrant new pollution controls that the White House
says would have cost 5 million Americans their jobs.

Climate scientists Michael Mann, Raymond Bradley and Malcolm Hughes had
concluded the Northern Hemisphere was the warmest it has been in 2,000
years. Their research was known as the "hockey-stick" graphic because
it compared the sharp curve of the hockey blade to the recent uptick in
temperatures and the stick's long shaft to centuries of previous
climate stability.

The National Academy scientists concluded that the Mann-Bradley-Hughes
research from the late 1990s was "likely" to be true, said John "Mike"
Wallace, an atmospheric sciences professor at the University of
Washington and a panel member. The conclusions from the '90s research
"are very close to being right" and are supported by even more recent
data, Wallace said.

The panel looked at how other scientists reconstructed the Earth's
temperatures going back thousands of years, before there was data from
modern scientific instruments.

For all but the most recent 150 years, the academy scientists relied on
"proxy" evidence from tree rings, corals, glaciers and ice cores, cave
deposits, ocean and lake sediments, boreholes and other sources. They
also examined indirect records such as paintings of glaciers in the
Alps.

Combining that information gave the panel "a high level of confidence
that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any
comparable period in the last 400 years," the academy said.

Overall, the panel agreed that the warming in the last few decades of
the 20th century was unprecedented over the last 1,000 years, though
relatively warm conditions persisted around the year 1000, followed by
a "Little Ice Age" from about 1500 to 1850.

The scientists said they had less confidence in the evidence of
temperatures before 1600. But they considered it reliable enough to
conclude there were sharp spikes in carbon dioxide and methane, the two
major "greenhouse" gases blamed for trapping heat in the atmosphere,
beginning in the 20th century, after remaining fairly level for 12,000
years.

Between 1 A.D. and 1850, volcanic eruptions and solar fluctuations were
the main causes of changes in greenhouse gas levels. But those
temperature changes "were much less pronounced than the warming due to
greenhouse gas" levels by pollution since the mid-19th century, it
said.

The National Academy of Sciences is a private organization chartered by
Congress to advise the government of scientific matters.

========================================================================
=================================================================
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15.: A group of pilots, under chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, conc
Posted by: "Ole Gerstrøm" mailto:gerstrom@post2.tele.dk?Subject=Re: olegerstrom
Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:27 pm (PST)
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=112&contentid=571
US Government Lies About 9-11
by THE PORTUGAL NEWS

A Portugal-based investigative journalist has presented THE NEWS with version of the September 11th attacks that has to date failed to attract the attention of the international press.

The report, compiled by an independent inquiry into the September 11th, World Trade Centre attack, warns the American public that the government's official version of events does not stand up to scrutiny.

A group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, after deliberating non-stop for 72 hours, has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners, involved in the September 11th tragedy, had no control over their aircraft.

In a detailed press communiqué the inquiry stated: "The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military operation carried out against the USA, requiring the utmost professional military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected targets."

The report seriously questions whether or not the suspect hijackers, supposedly trained on Cessna light aircraft, could have located a target dead-on 200 miles from take off point.

It further throws into doubt their ability to master the intricacies of the instrument flight rules (IFR) in the 45 minutes from take off to the point of impact.

Colonel de Grand said that it would be impossible for novices to have taken control of the four aircraft and orchestrated such a terrible act requiring military precision of the highest order.

A member of the inquiry team, a US Air Force officer who flew over 100 sorties during the Vietnam war, told the press conference: "Those birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter pilot in the left seat, or they were being manoeuvred by remote control."

In evidence given to the enquiry, Captain Kent Hill (retd.) of the US Air Force, and friend of Chic Burlingame, the pilot of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, stated that the US had on several occasions flown an unmanned aircraft, similar in size to a Boeing 737, across the Pacific from Edwards Air Force base in California to South Australia.

According to Hill it had flown on a pre programmed flight path under the control of a pilot in an outside station.

Hill also quoted Bob Ayling, former British Airways boss, in an interview given to the London Economist on September 20th, 2001.

Ayling admitted that it was now possible to control an aircraft in flight from either the ground or in the air.

This was confirmed by expert witnesses at the inquiry who testified that airliners could be controlled by electro-magnetic pulse or radio frequency instrumentation from command and control platforms based either in the air or at ground level.

All members of the inquiry team agreed that even if guns were held to their heads none of them would fly a plane into a building.

Their reaction would be to ditch the plane into a river or a field, thereby safeguarding the lives of those on the ground.

A further question raised by the inquiry was why none of the pilots concerned had alerted ground control.

It stated that all pilots are trained to punch a four-digit code into the flight control's transponder to warn ground control crews of a hijacking - but this did not happen.

During the press conference Captain Hill maintained that the four airliners must have been choreographed by an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).

This system can engage several aircraft simultaneously by knocking out their on-board flight controls. He said that all the evidence points to the fact that the pilots and their crews had not taken any evasive action to resist the supposed hijackers.

They had not attempted any sudden changes in flight path or nose-dive procedures - which led him to believe that they had no control over their aircraft.

THE NEWS, in an attempt to further substantiate the potential veracity of these findings, spoke to an Algarve-based airline pilot, who has more than 20 years of experience in flying passenger planes, to seek his views.

Captain Colin McHattie, currently flying with Cathay Pacific, agreed with the independent commission's findings. However, he explained that while it is possible to fly a plane from the ground, the installation of the necessary equipment is a time-consuming process, and needs extensive planning. THE NEWS will publish a full interview with Captain McHattie in next week's edition.

The FBI also came in for criticism for the various pieces of contradictory evidence it has published regarding the suspects. Questions are now being asked as to how incorrect information was given out regarding the ID cards of the suspects, and the seat numbers they supposedly occupied after boarding the flights.

None of the suspects named by the FBI appeared on any of the official passenger lists.

A further point was how the FBI had managed to retrieve the passport of one of the suspects amid the molten and twisted remains of thousands of tons of steel and rubble brought about by the Twin Towers collapse.

Dr. Paul Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury, and presently Senior Research Fellow at Stamford University, has lent his support to the independent inquiry findings. He also claims that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for September 11th.

The doctor has challenged President Bush to make public the so-called "irrefutable evidence" incriminating Bin Laden.

Colonel Donn de Grand said that if President Bush is lying it would not be the first time that the American people had been mislead by its government. He cited the recently published official government archives describing President Roosevelt's duplicity in deceiving Americans about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, which triggered the US entry into WWll.

He also highlighted the role of the country's government in misleading its citizens in respect of the Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba, and the events that brought about the Spanish American war in the late 19th, century. "Whilst considering who committed this act of war on September 11th," he said, "albeit Russia, China, an Islamic country or NATO, we must also consider that the enemy may well be within the gates.

"Not for the first time the American public might be being mislead, by those with ulterior motives, into lending its support to a war, this time against Iraq, that has no bearing whatsoever on the interests of the people of the USA."

So far the mainstream American news media has failed to publish or broadcast any details regarding the independent inquiry. Similarly, the White House, whilst having received a copy of the report, has remained silent on its findings.
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16.: Fwd: [panopticage] Global equity meltdown costs investors $2 trillio
Posted by: "Kevin Lee Hammond" mailto:exposethenewworldorder@yahoo.com?Subject=Re: exposethenewworldorder
Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:03 pm (PST)

Me <caomhainh@yahoo.com> wrote: Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Me <caomhainh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: [panopticage] Global equity meltdown costs investors $2 trillion
To: exposethenewworldorder@yahoo.com, caomhainh@yahoo.com

Note: forwarded message attached.

Expose the New World Order to FIGHT the New World Order!
www.fightthenwo.org

Kevin __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com To: panopticage@yahoogroups.com
From: "Phillip Darrell Collins" <oneeyeguy_2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:31:44 -0000
Subject: [panopticage] Global equity meltdown costs investors $2 trillion

Global equity meltdown costs investors $2 trillion By Chris SandersTue Jun 13, 5:27 PM ET

The month-long slide in global stocks has wiped out at least $2 trillion in wealth, leaving investors few alternatives to preserve their holdings aside from bonds and money markets.
Investors have been dumping stocks, commodities and emerging market assets on growing concerns that economic growth will suffer from higher inflation and interest rates.
"It is essentially one consistent story worldwide, starting here in the U.S. There is a fear that the Fed's repeated commitment to limiting inflation demonstrates a willingness to risk economic activity," said Christopher Low, chief economist at FTN Financial in New York.
Stock markets have been punished since the U.S. Federal Reserve raised interest rates for 16th time in a row on May 10 and issued a hawkish statement saying it may need to do so again to fight inflation. Investors had expected some sign of an end to the tightening cycle.
Global markets have suffered since, and strategists show little agreement about how deep and how long the sell-off will go. Bonds have been the most direct beneficiary of the equities route, with benchmark U.S. 10-year Treasuries staging their longest rally of the year since mid-May.
MARKETS FALL INTO THE RED ON THE YEAR
The Dow Jones industrial average (^DJI - news) is off 8.2 percent since mid-May and as of Tuesday's close had erased its gain for the year. The Nasdaq Composite Index (^IXIC - news) is off 12.75 percent from its high for the year on April 19 and the Standard & Poor's 500 Index (^SPX - news) has fallen by nearly 8 percent from its May peaks.
On Tuesday, Tokyo's Nikkei average booked its biggest one-day percentage fall in two years, tumbling 4.14 percent, wiping out more than 16.56 trillion yen ($145 billion) in market value from the Tokyo Stock Exchange's first section. It was the biggest one-day point drop since immediately after the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.
In Europe, the FTSEurofirst 300 (^FTEU3 - news) index of top European shares has fallen about 11 percent since May 11. The index finished at 1,238.5 points on Tuesday, its lowest closing level since November 30.
Since its year high hit in early May, the MSCI World Index (^MSCIWO - news) of global stocks has lost $1.9 trillion in market capitalization, nearly 12 percent of its value and more than the economic output of the United Kingdom.
The index compiled by MSCI Barra does not account for all global stocks, meaning the total amount of lost wealth is greater still.
As global central banks in Europe and United States have raised interest rates to cool inflation, investors are aggressively slashing their exposure to emerging markets as well.
OUTFLOWS FROM EQUITIES
Investors pulled out about $8.5 billion from emerging equities in the three weeks ending June 8, according to data from EmergingPortfolio.com Funds research. The benchmark MSCI emerging market stock index (^MSCIEF - news) has lost about 24 percent since May 10.
"We've seen a lot of panic selling by people who have gotten into emerging markets and commodities later in the game -- pessimism is high," said Scott Wren, a senior equity strategist with A.G. Edwards & Sons. "People are sitting on a lot of cash and are afraid to get back in the market."
Given the drop-off markets, analysts said investors should now seek quality.
Tom McManus, chief investment strategist with Banc of America Securities said investors should look at "the bonds of the stock market. Steady companies with strong earnings and geographic diversification."
These shares have been out of favor since about 1998, he added, and are the kind of companies Warren Buffett has been known to own -- companies with top-quality balance sheets and diversified earnings streams. Shares held by Buffett include Coca Cola Co. (NYSE:KO - news), American Express Co. (NYSE:AXP - news), Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news), Wells Fargo & Co. (NYSE:WFC - news) and Anheuser-Busch (NYSE:BUD - news). Each of these has retained their gains even as the S&P 500 has erased its advance and now stands 2 percent lower on the year. The global sell-off, however, is not over and may only be just starting, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s global equity strategist Abhijit Chakrabortti. "This is nothing compared with what we may see late in the summer and early October -- once slower growth finally sinks in and expectations for higher benchmark rates, at 6 percent or even more, come out," Chakrabortti told the Reuters Investment Outlook Summit in New
York. "Sectors most dependent on growth and the companies most dependent on volume and price declines, which also includes tech companies, should be avoided," he said. "We like the big telecom providers such as Verizon (NYSE:VZ - news) and AT&T (NYSE:T - news), as well as Colgate (NYSE:CL - news)," he added. All three have soundly outperformed the market this year, gaining 4.75 percent, 10.3 percent and 12 percent, respectively. Among U.S. mutual funds, investors pulled only $1.9 billion out of equity funds in the week that ended June 7, not a huge amount compared with outflows of $7.1 billion during the previous week, research firm TrimTabs reported late last week. At Boston-based Fidelity Investments, the world's biggest mutual fund company, "we have not noticed unusual activity during the past several days but we had strong money market inflows in May," said Vincent Loporchio, a spokesman. (Additional reporting by Ros Krasny, Vivianne Rodrigues, Chris Reese
and Svea Herbst-Bayliss in Boston)
Original URL:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060613/bs_nm/markets_equities_global_dc_1

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17.: Beware: 9/11 'Official Story': "You Have To Convince Yourself, By Tr
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject=Re: drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:29 pm (PST)
Beware: 9/11 'Official Story': "You Have To Convince Yourself, By Trying To Prove Us Wrong"
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18.: Alex interviews Jimmy Walters 06.20.06
Posted by: "smacko" mailto:smacko9@comcast.net?Subject=Re: drsmacko
Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:45 pm (PST)

Jimmy starts at 46:00 mark
aj_2006-06-20.mp3

http://nw0.info/files/Radio/Alex%20Jones%20Radio%20Archive/2006/June/20/aj_2006-06-20.mp3
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Friday, June 23, 2006

» Victims' Families Say Gov't Secrecy Keeping 9/11 Truth Hidden

» Fox News Watch

» Iraq Insanity

» FRONTLINE goes behind the headlines to investigate

» Dr. James Fetzer on Hannity and Colmes

Messages In This Digest (9 Messages)

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Posted by: "Vigilius Haufniensis" nerdmann@earthlink.net concept_of_irony

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:04 pm (PST)

Posted by: "bill.giltner@gmail.com" bill.giltner@gmail.com bgiltner

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:13 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:17 pm (PST)

Posted by: "better_off_said" better_off_said@yahoo.com better_off_said

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:40 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:18 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:34 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Sean McBride" smcbride2@yahoo.com smcbride2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:55 pm (PST)

Posted by: "better_off_said" better_off_said@yahoo.com better_off_said

Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:05 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Bill Giltner" bill.giltner@gmail.com bgiltner

Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:06 pm (PST)

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Posted by: "Paul Joseph Watson" watson@prisonplanet.com onedeaddj

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:11 pm (PST)

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Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:36 am (PST)

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Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:49 am (PST)

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Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:03 pm (PST)

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